§ 4.4 p.m.
§ Mr. Forbes Hendry (Aberdeenshire, West)I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to safeguard the position of independent schools in Scotland, and to protect the right of parents to freedom of choice.If, at one time, I had been told that I should be appealing to a predominantly English House of Commons for protection of our Scottish educational traditions, I should not have believed it. We in Scotland have always been proud of our educational traditions. We have always felt, possibly with too much conceit, that where we led England followed. It is for that reason, and that reason only, that I feel confident in appealing to my colleagues from England and Wales and Northern Ireland for support in the predicament in which we find ourselves. [HON. MEMBERS: "What about Scotland?"] I have no hesitation in saying that my Scottish colleagues will, for the most part, support me.I appeal to my colleagues from across the Border on another ground. I have made a discovery about the intentions of right hon. and hon. Members opposite, if they should ever become the Government of this country, which I think the country is entitled to know. We hear a great deal from hon. Members opposite about the country being entitled to know. It seems that they let the country know in a way that shipping companies and railway companies let their passengers know the rules and regulations which apply to the journey. We are all aware of what is printed on a railway or shipping ticket about people being subject to all the things in the small print in the hope that nobody will read the small print.
We have been treated by hon. Members opposite to a document called "Signposts for the Sixties", which has been widely circulated throughout the United Kingdom. It is very interesting and contains a great deal of information, but it leaves out a great deal of other information which, I think, the country is entitled to know. I have discovered that, besides "Signposts for the Sixties", hon. Members opposite have issued another document called "Signposts for Scotland". It is almost identical in form to the first 1040 one. It is headed "The Labour Party", and the only difference on the cover, apart from the title, is that it costs 9d. instead of 6d. Whether that is intended to make it more difficult for people to acquire it I do not know. All that I can find out is that the Library copy has been out for several days and is almost unprocurable. I understand that it has been borrowed by an hon. Member opposite.
As I say, "Signposts for the Sixties" is a very interesting document. From page 29 to page 32, there is a great deal of verbiage on the subject of the independent schools which boils down to nothing, because on page 32 we find:
It would be wrong at this stage to lay down a detailed blueprint for the future rôle of the public schools—both because the next few years may well see a radical change in educational requirements and because the resources available in each of them will require careful assessment.In other words, the Labour Party has not made up its mind. That is what the people of the country, especially those in England and Wales, have been told.If we turn to the other document, we find an entirely different picture. There are two references to education. One is full of the usual sort of thing about slum schools. I do not know where they are, but possibly hon. Members opposite do. On page 19, there is a very interesting supplement to "Signposts for the Sixties" which states:
Fee-paying schools form a very small, but nevertheless privileged, sector of our Scottish system. We intend to end this educational privilege".In other words, in this document which has a very small circulation, printed by the S.C.W.S. in Glasgow and costing 9d. instead of 6d., we find something which hon. Members opposite are trying to hide from our colleagues in England and Wales.I think that I am performing a public duty by telling the House exactly their intentions. This is not a document which has been published by a few hotheads in Glasgow, because it is headed "The Labour Party". We find from page 2 that the document is published by the Labour Party and that it has received the endorsement of the National Executive. The country is entitled to know about this, and I consider it my duty to tell the people exactly what they may expect if we have the misfortune of a Labour Government coming to power.
1041 What does this amount to in Scotland? Hon. Members opposite say that this is a very small matter in Scotland; but it is not. We have great public schools in Scotland. For instance, we have Fettes, which produced the previous Leader of the House. We have Gordonstoun, probably a more famous public school than any other in the world. We have Merchiston, Glenalmond, a very famous school, instituted by Mr. Gladstone, and Loretto.
However, these are not the schools which worry me, because a very important part of the educational system in Scotland consists of fee-paying schools, in accordance with our Scottish tradition that every boy, not matter who he is, whether the son of a duke or a labourer, is entitled to the best education that he can get and is entitled to it free if he cannot afford to pay.
It has always been part of Scottish tradition that if a boy's father could pay, he should pay to the best of his ability. That has been the guiding light for many fathers in Scotland for many generations.
§ Mr. Charles A. Howell (Birmingham, Perry Barr)Can boys get into Gordonstoun without paying?
§ Mr. HendryOf course they can. I was educated at Stirling High School, the Scottish equivalent of the ancient English grammar school. In the 1920s, parents who could afford to pay were invited to pay a modest fee. My father prided himself on paying the fees. I know that many other boys and girls were there whose parents could not alford to pay. They were there on equal terms with me.
That happens throughout Scotland even now. In the City of Aberdeen, there is the famous Robert Gordon's College, of 1,100 boys. Every year, 63 places are put at the disposal of the education authority. This is an invaluable contribution. Quite apart from anything else, it saves the rates in the City of Aberdeen no less than £60,000 a year. If the parents of the boys who go to this school can afford to pay, they are proud to do so.
If they did not pay these fees, what would parents do with the money? They would probably hire a television set, 1042 which they cannot afford. The strange thing is that the fees for a boy at Robert Gordon's College amount to almost exactly the same as the rent of a television set for one year. Many parents in Scotland, as in England and Wales, deprive themselves to give their sons a better education than they themselves have had—and why not? If a mother is prepared to go without a new coat for five years so that her son can have a better education, why should she not do so? Why should she save the money and spend it at bingo halls instead of seeing that her son gets a better chance in life than he would otherwise have? This fundamental human freedom, which has been enjoyed by parents in Scotland and in England and Wales for many generations, is to be done away with.
When speaking about fundamental human freedoms, it is interesting to listen to hon. Members opposite praising the United Nations and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. That is very largely lip-service, because here we have this declaration in "Signposts for Scotland". If, however, we turn to Article 26 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, passed by the General Assembly of the United Nations, we find that
Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that shall be given to their children.That is one of the fundamental human rights declared by the United Nations. But, evidently, the sponsors of "Signposts for Scotland", who support the United Nations, so they say, seem to forget this important point.The Bill which I seek leave to introduce contains two main Clauses. One seeks to safeguard the independent schools and to ensure that they receive the protection which they have always had under the common law of Scotland. Clause 2 would declare for the avoidance of doubt that the declaration of the United Nations is part, and will remain part, of the law of Scotland. Clause 3 would apply the Bill to Scotland only. If, however, any of my colleagues from England and Wales would care to put down an Amendment to extend the Bill to the whole of the United Kingdom, I shall be happy so to apply it and to give its benefit to the whole of the United Kingdom instead of to Scotland alone.
1043 Our fundamental freedom in Scotland—the freedom of parents to choose the education for their children, which has gone on from time immemorial—is in danger and I appeal to the House for this protection.
§ 4.14 p.m.
§ Mr. Malcolm MacPherson (Stirling and Falkirk Burghs)I rise to oppose the Motion. The hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, West (Mr. Hendry) has picked out from "Signposts for Scotland", a document which well deserves his attention and that of every other Member opposite, one sentence which he has then proceeded to erect into a threat to something in the Scottish way of life.
The sentence which the hon. Member quoted was, of course, correctly quoted:
We intend to end this educational privilegeThat one sentence puts briefly what we think about something which has been stated more fully, more clearly and more explicitly on many occasions. I direct the hon. Member's attention to the fact that what we intend to end by this sentence is privilege. That is the operative word in the sentence. If the hon. Member wants to know rather more about what we think about these matters, and about what we intend to do, he will find any number of references in the statements which have been made over the years, either orally, as reported in the Press, or written in documents.I give the hon. Member an instance which puts fairly clearly one of the essentian points connected with the argument which he has put:
Labour believes that in a democratic country parents must have the right to provide for the education of their children outside local authority schools if they so desire.We can add to that the other rights to choose their own way of educating their children. This has been made clear and explicit time and time again by my right hon. and hon. Friends in the House and elsewhere. No threat is involved, but there is a strong feeling on our part against privilege, whether in education or elsewhere, and a strong desire to end it.The hon. Member has mentioned two different types of school: Fettes and Gordonstoun, on the one hand, and Stirling High School, which, in his day, 1044 was fee-paying, and other fee-paying schools under the control of education committees. These are two quite different types of school. We propose to take no forcible steps about either of these types. Our intentions about the public schools are well known, because they have been much discussed. We intend to try by agreement with them to get the public schools to work more closely with the ordinary State education system. This applies on both sides of the Border.
As to fee-paying schools which are under the control of education committees, we do not think that the charging of fees in these schools is a sound principle. We would prefer those education committees to make a change, but we will not hold a pistol to their heads and say, "You will make a change, or else". We propose to make these changes, if we can by persuasion. We consider that these changes are desirable in the national interest.
What is concerned here is not the freedom to which the hon. Member has referred, but privilege. A number of the ways in which it expresses itself are well known to the House, but I will take an example which is, possibly, well known. Nowadays, the Public School List involves quite a number of schools which get public money as well as schools which are independent. Public schools in the wider sense have received money from a body called the Industrial Fund during the last few years. I have not had time to check its full title, but it is concerned with the strengthening of science departments in public and direct grant schools.
During recent years, those schools have received sums of money to strengthen, or sometimes to recreate their science departments, sums not of £5,000 or £10,000, but of £50,000, £100,000 and, in some cases, if my memory is right, twice that amount. They are enormous sums. Like so many of the privileges that these schools enjoy, this is an intelligent, sensible and, in many respects, admirable thing to do. All the major schools and a great many of the minor schools have benefited from it. But the State schools have had nothing like this kind of help. The Industrial Fund said, "Ministers ought to provide, as we are doing, for the schools under the State 1045 system". Ministers have not, of course. This is privilege.
Let us take another example, that of the existence of the Public Schools Employment Bureau, an admirable institution in its own way. But what does it do that the ordinary local employment officers cannot? My hon. Friend the Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes) went to Eton a little while ago to address the boys there by invitation. He chose as his subject coal mining as a career. I am not aware that the Bureau managed to persuade many Etonians to go down the pits to work as a result of that speech. But it has its effects elsewhere.
This is a privilege. When the hon. Member talks about it simply in terms of the freedom of the parents, he is, of course, quite wrong and mistaken. Let us imagine someone in the position of the ordinary parent trying to put this freedom into effect—perhaps one of the hon. Member's constituents in West Aberdeenshire. Let us imagine, for instance, the local postman going to the hon. Member, as his Member of Parliament, for advice, trying to get his Member of Parliament to encourage or discourage him about sending his son to Fettes. The hon. Member would explain to the postman, "It will cost you only about £500 a year". The postman may think, "After all, the Postmaster-General is so generous to us that I shall have at least £1 or 30s. left to keep myself and the rest of my family". Freedom for the parent—nonsense! That is not the kind of phrase which is justified in the slightest.
§ The whole point about these institutions is that they were created so that the people who had money would be able to buy certain privileges for their children. There was a time in Scotland when the tradition of education was quite different. There was a time when, under the influence of John Knox, one thought of a school in every parish, and there was a time when that parish school attracted to it in the normal course of events the son of the laird as well as the son of the ploughman. I do not know what course the hon. Gentleman would want the education system in Scotland to follow in the future, but I can guess.
§ We want a return to the system in which the son of the laird goes to the same school as the son of the postman. The hon. Gentleman apparently wants to preserve the system arising largely out of the Industrial Revolution of the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries by which when one has made money one can find various ways, including educational ways, for removing one's children from the ordinary ruck of competition. In so far as an education system is to have any effect of a social or sociological kind, any effect apart from the mental and moral training of the individual, we should prefer a system which has not a divisive effect on society but a unifying effect on it. For that reason, I oppose the Motion.
§ Question put, pursuant to Standing Order No. 13 (Motions for leave to bring in Bills and nomination of Select Committees at commencement of Public Business):—
§ The House divided: Ayes 140, Noes 129.
1047| Division No. 133.] | AYES | [4.24 p.m. |
| Balniel, Lord | Cooke, Robert | Gammans, Lady |
| Barber, Rt. Hon. Anthony | Crawley, Aidan | Giles, Rear-Admiral Morgan |
| Barter, John | Critchley, Julian | Gower, Raymond |
| Batsford, Brian | Cunningham, Sir Knox | Green, Alan |
| Biffen, John | Curran, Charles | Grosvenor, Lord Robert |
| Biggs-Davison, John | Currie, G. B. H. | Gurden, Harold |
| Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel | Dalkeith, Earl of | Hall, John (Wycombe) |
| Bourne-Arton, A. | Dance, James | Hamilton, Michael (Wellingborough) |
| Box, Donald | d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry | Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N. W.) |
| Braine, Bernard | Deedes, Rt. Hon. W. F. | Harris, Reader (Heston) |
| Brewis, John | Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. M. | Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye) |
| Brooke, Rt. Hon. Henry | Drayson, G. B. | Harvie Anderson, Miss |
| Brown, Alan (Tottenham) | Duncan, Sir James | Hastings, Stephen |
| Buck, Antony | Elliott, R. W. (Newc'tle-upon-Tyne, N.) | Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel |
| Burden, F. A. | Emery, Peter | Henderson, Sir John (Cathcart) |
| Butcher, Sir Herbert | Errington, Sir Eric | Hiley, Joseph |
| Carr, Rt. Hon. Robert (Mitcham) | Farey-Jones, F. W. | Hill, Mrs. Eveline (Wythenshawe) |
| Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmth, W.) | Fraser, Ian (Plymouth, Sutton) | Hirst, Geoffrey |
| Cleaver, Leonard | Freeth, Denzil | Hocking, Philip N. |
| Cole, Norman | Galbraith, Hon. T. G. D. | Hogg, Rt. Hon, Quintin |
| Hollingworth, John | Maddan, Martin | Ridley, Hon. Nicholas |
| Hopkins, Alan | Maitland, Sir John | Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard |
| Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hon. Dame P. | Markham, Major Sir Frank | Russell, Sir Donald |
| Hulbert, Sir Norman | Marshall, Sir Douglas | Seymour, Leslie |
| Hurd, Sir Anthony | Matthews, Gordon (Meriden) | Skeet, T. H. H. |
| Hutchison, Michael Clark | Maude, Angus (Stratford-on-Avon) | Smith, Dudley (Br'ntf'd & Chiswick) |
| Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye) | Mawby, Ray | Spearman, Sir Alexander |
| Jennings, J. C. | Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. | Stainton, Keith |
| Joseph, Rt. Hon. Sir Keith | Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C. | Stanley, Hon. Richard |
| Kerans, Cdr. J. S. | Miscampbell, Norman | Stevens, Geoffrey |
| Kerby, Capt. Henry | Montgomery, Fergus | Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.) |
| Kershaw, Anthony | More, Jasper (Ludlow) | Studholme, Sir Henry |
| Kimball, Marcus | Morrison, Charles (Devizes) | Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret |
| Kirk, Peter | Nicholls, Sir Harmar | Thornton-Kemsley, Sir Colin |
| Kitson, Timothy | Osborne, Sir Cyril (Louth) | Tilney, John (Wavertree) |
| Lancaster, Col. C. G. | Percival, Ian | Touche, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon |
| Langford-Holt, Sir John | Pickthorn, Sir Kenneth | Tweedsmuir, Lady |
| Leather, Sir Edwin | Pike, Miss Mervyn | Vickers, Miss Joan |
| Leavey, J. A. | Pitt, Dame Edith | Walker, Peter |
| Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry | Pounder, Rafton | Ward, Dame Irene |
| Lilley, F. J. p. | Powell, Rt. Hon. J. Enoch | Wells, John (Maidstone) |
| Litchfield, Capt. John | Prior-Palmer, Brig. Sir Otho | Williams, Sir Rolf Dudley (Exeter) |
| Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey (SutnC'dfield) | Proudfoot, Wilfred | Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.) |
| Longbottom, Charles | Pym, Francis | Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater) |
| Loveys, Walter H. | Quennell, Miss J. M. | |
| Lucas, Sir Jocelyn | Rees, Hugh (Swansea, W.) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| McAdden, Sir Stephen | Rees-Davies, W. R- (Isle of Thanet) | Mr. Hendry and Mr. Anderson. |
| MacArthur, Ian | Renton, Rt. Hon. David | |
| NOES | ||
| Ainsley, William | Hart, Mrs. Judith | Paget, R. T. |
| Albu, Austen | Hayman, F. H. | Panned, Charles (Leeds, W.) |
| Alldritt, W. H. | Healey, Dennis | Pavitt, Laurence |
| Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) | Henderson, Rt. Hn. Arthur (Rwly Regis) | Peart, Frederick |
| Bacon, Miss Alice | Herbison, Miss Margaret | Pentland, Norman |
| Beaney, Alan | Hill, J. (Midlothian) | Prentice, R. E. |
| Bence, Cyril | Hilton, A. V. | Probert, Arthur |
| Benson, Sir George | Holman, Percy | Randall, Harry |
| Blyton, William | Houghton, Douglas | Rankin, John |
| Bowden, Rt. Hn. H. W.(Leics, S. W.) | Howell, Charles A. (Perry Barr) | Reid, William |
| Bowles, Frank | Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey) | Reynolds, G. W. |
| Braddock, Mrs. E. M. | Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) |
| Bradley, Tom | Hunter, A. E. | Robertson, John (Paisley) |
| Bray, Dr. Jeremy | Hynd, John (Attercliffe) | Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.) |
| Brockway, A. Fenner | Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.) | Rogers, G. H. R. (Kensington, N.) |
| Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper) | Jones, Dan (Burnley) | Ross, William |
| Carmichael, Neil | Kelley, Richard | Short, Edward |
| Castle, Mrs. Barbara | King, Dr. Horace | Silverman, Julius (Aston) |
| Chapman, Donald | Lawson, George | Slater, Mrs. Harriet (Stoke, N.) |
| Collick, Percy | Lee, Frederick (Newton) | Slater, Joseph (Sedgefield) |
| Craddock George (Bradford, S.) | Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock) | Small, William |
| Cullen, Mrs. Alice | Lewis, Arthur (West Ham, N.) | Snow, Julian |
| Davies, Ifor (Gower) | Loughlin, Charles | Sorensen, R. W. |
| Dempsey, James | McBride, N. | Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank |
| Diamond, John | McCann, J. | Spriggs, Leslie |
| Dodds, Norman | MacColl, James | Steele, Thomas |
| Driberg, Tom | Mclnnes, James | Stonehouse, John |
| Duffy, A. E. P. (Colne Valley) | McKay, John (wallsend) | Stonehouse, John |
| Edwards, Rt. Hon Nees (Carephilly) | Mackenzie, Gregor | Stones, William |
| Edwards, Robert (Bilston) | Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.) | Stross, SirBarnett (Stoke-on-Trent, C.) |
| Manuel, Archie | Swingler, Stephen | |
| Fernyhough, E. | Marsh, Richard | Symonds, J. B. |
| Finch, Harold | Mason, Roy | Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield) |
| Foley, Maurice | Mayhew, Christopher | Wainwright, Edwin |
| Foot, Dingle (Ipswich) | Mellish, R. J. | Warbey, William |
| Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale) | Watkins, Tudor | |
| Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton) | Mendelson, J. J. | White, Mrs. Eirene |
| George, Lady MeganLloyd (Crmrthn) | Millan, Bruce | Whitlock, William |
| Ginsburg, David | Milne, Edward | Wilkins, W. A. |
| Gourlay, Harry | Monslow, Walter | Winterbottom, R. E, |
| Grey, Charles | Moody, A. S. | Woof, Robert |
| Griffiths, W. (Exchange) | Mulley, Frederick | Yates, Victor (Ladywood) |
| Hamilton, William (West Fife) | Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Hannan, William | Oliver, G. H. | Mr. Malcolm MacPherson and |
| Harper, Joseph | O'Malley, B. K. | Mr. Hoy. |
§ Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Forbes Hendry, Mr. D. C. Anderson, Commander Donaldson, Miss Harvie Anderson, and Mr. Michael Clark Hutchison.