HC Deb 08 July 1964 vol 698 cc392-7
17. Mr. Rankin

asked the Minister of Aviation what advice he gave to the British Overseas Airways Corporation regarding the cancellation of a number of VC10s they had ordered from the British Aircraft Corporation; how many aircraft are involved; what liability Her Majesty's Government are accepting for losses incurred by British Overseas Airways Corporation; and if he will make a statement.

29. Mr. Diamond

asked the Minister of Aviation if he has now completed his discussions on the cancellation by the British Overseas Airways Corporation of part of the order for the VC10; and if he will make a statement on the amount of compensation to be paid for each cancelled aircraft.

30. Mr. Stonehouse

asked the Minister of Aviation what compensation he has approved to be paid to the British Aircraft Corporation for the reduction in the British Overseas Airways Corporation order for VC10 aircraft.

41. Mr. Cronin

asked the Minister of Aviation if he will make a statement with regard to the proposed cancellation of orders for VC10 aircraft by the British Overseas Airways Corporation.

Mr. Amery

I expect to make a statement shortly.

Mr. Rankin

Again, will not the right hon. Gentleman give us some encouragement as to what that statement may mean? Does he propose to accept the decision of his predecessors that 42 VC10 aircraft should be ordered, and, if so, does it mean that if losses occur in operation, he will help B.O.A.C. to meet them? In view of his interest in the industry and the need to safeguard it, can he assure B.A.C. that the 42 VC10s originally decided upon will now be ordered?

Mr. Amery

I will, naturally, take careful note of what the hon. Gentleman has said, all the more so in view of his own experience of and close association with the industry. I think it would be wrong to try to anticipate my statement, but, naturally, I stand by what I said in the directive that I gave to Sir Giles Guthrie, in which I asked him to run the airline on a commercial basis but said that if for any reason the Government wished to depart from commercial terms, they would have to accept responsibility for doing so.

Mr. Diamond

First, would the right hon. Gentleman say what he means by "shortly"? This is very relevant considering the likely duration of this Parliament. Secondly, is he aware that this continued unwillingness to stand up to the facts of the situation and grapple with it and reach a decision is causing the greatest damage to airlines, to aircraft manufacture and to the employees in the industry, and that nothing can be calculated to be more harmful than unwillingness to face up to his responsibilities as Minister?

Mr. Amery

By "shortly" I mean in plenty of time for the hon. Gentleman to deliver the speech which I am sure is already cooking in his breast.

Mr. Stonehouse

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is a great deal of public concern about this question and that his smart evasive answers are not good enough? Will he say whether he has reflected on the answer he gave in the House a week or so ago, and is he now prepared to confirm that he gave no direction in any form in regard to the original order that B.O.A.C. made for the VC10? Will he also say whether he accepts the principle of paying compensation to B.A.C. if the order is reduced?

Mr. Amery

In the first part of his supplementary question, the hon. Gentleman asked me off the cuff what direction, if any, was given about the original order. I was not there at the time, and, without consulting the records, I am not in a position to answer the question. If the hon. Gentleman would care to table a Question, I will do my best to answer it, if necessary in a written reply. As to the second part of the supplementary question, I prefer not to anticipate the statement that I shall be making shortly and any discussion of it which may follow.

Mr. Cronin

As the previous Chairman of B.O.A.C. said before the Estimates Committee that the excessive VC10 order was made under pressure, will the right hon. Gentleman in his statement make it quite clear who was responsible for the excessive order? Furthermore, as this appears to be the culmination of an uninterrupted series of blunders which have emerged from the Ministry of Aviation during the Minister's period of office, does he not agree that it is essential that we should have not only an early statement but an early debate so that the general public may be aware of the situation before the General Election?

Mr. Amery

Any question of a debate is a matter for my right hon. and learned Friend the Leader of the House and not for me. What I have undertaken to do is to make an early statement, and that I shall do shortly, in plenty of time for the hon. Gentleman to make the speech to which I have referred. I do not necessarily accept the implication of what the hon. Gentleman has said, but I shall try to deal faithfully with the matter when the time comes.

Sir W. Robson Brown

When he is making up his mind on this matter, will my right hon. Friend give the greatest consideration to the effects that a wrong decision will have on the employment of many thousands of aircraft workers in the Weybridge aircraft works? Will he draw the attention of B.O.A.C. to the large posters spread all over London, and possibly all over England, which present the VC10 as triumphant, silent and serene? Will B.O.A.C. support what it says in its posters in its advice to him? Will he bear in mind that this is not a constituency matter, but a matter of grave concern to the future of the British aircraft industry's subsonic aircraft and the complete jeopardy of the long-term future of the industry itself?

Mr. Amery

I am sure that all concerned, in the Government, in the House, in B.O.A.C. and B.A.C., are well aware of the gravity of the issues at stake. Nobody doubts that the VC10 is an extremely fine aircraft and an outstanding long-range jet.

Mr. Lee

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the longer this matter goes on the greater the apprehension there will be in a vital industry and that the sooner he can resolve this problem the better? Although he may not be able to set a date on which to make his statement, can he at any rate relieve the apprehension, which may cost the jobs of many thousands of people, by giving an approximate date on which he will make his statement? Is he aware that many of us would like to see a very great aircraft preserved? Could he make his statement next week?

Mr. Amery

I would hope to be able to make it next week, but I would not wish to be committed to that. The hon. Gentleman knows as well as I do the difficulties of negotiation which sometimes occur in these matters. I agree that the delay can cause disquiet to a number of those concerned, but our prime interest must be to reach the right decision.

Mr. Rankin

On a point of order. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the right hon. Gentleman's reply, I shall try to raise the matter in the House as shortly as possible.

28. Mr. Diamond

asked the Minister of Aviation what advice was given by Her Majesty's Government to the British Overseas Airways Corporation regarding the size of the original order for the VC10; and what form this took.

33. Mr. Stonehouse

asked the Minister of Aviation what instructions were given by Her Majesty's Government to the British Overseas Airways Corporation about the order for the VC10; and to what extent factors other than commercial were taken into consideration in deciding the number of aircraft orders.

Mr. Amery

No advice or instruction was given to British Overseas Airways Corporation with regard to the VC10 order. This was presented by the Corporation to my predecessor as a commercial requirement.

Mr. Diamond

Does the right hon. Gentleman want us to accept that as a complete, full and frank answer which would differentiate somewhat from previous answers? Is he saying to us that no advice of any kind was given and that the Corporation was left completely unaware of the thinking of the Ministry at this time?

Mr. Amery

Any different shades of meaning which may be in the hon. Member's mind would be better discussed in full context rather than in question and answer. If we come to debate the Report of the Select Committee, that will be the time. The answer I have given is, to the best of my knowledge and understanding, fully accurate.

Mr. Stonehouse

Is the right hon. Member aware that, in the Report of the Select Committee, it is confirmed that a former Chairman of B.O.A.C. said that he was under strong pressure to order VC10s because of the Minister's interest in protecting B.A.C.? As this scandal is likely to out-Ferranti Ferranti, is he aware that the House will expect a far fuller account of the relations between B.O.A.C. and the Minister on this subject?

Mr. Amery

I gave my answer, of course, with full knowledge of what is said in the Report.

Mr. Cronin

Is it not the case that the Minister has to apply to the Treasury for loans to purchase aircraft and, under Statute, must make out his case to the Treasury? Is he now saying that he made a case for loans for these aircraft without taking full responsibility for the desirability of the project?

Mr. Amery

That raises rather different issues but, again, we might ventilate them in the debate.

Sir H. d'Avigdor-Goldsmid

Is my right hon. Friend aware that, if he studies the evidence laid before the Select Committee, he will find nothing in it to support the allegation made by the hon. Member for Wednesbury (Mr. Stonehouse)?

Mr. Amery indicated assent

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