HC Deb 27 January 1964 vol 688 cc13-5
24. Mr. Ross

asked the Minister of Labour how many apprentices are attending the first-year apprenticeship training courses in Glasgow; and what are the plans for increasing these facilities in the next few years.

Mr. Godber

Forty-seven apprentices are attending first-year apprentice training courses at the Hillington Government Training Centre in Glasgow. Provision is being made for 24 first-year apprentice training places at the new Government training centre to be set up at Queenslie, Glasgow.

Mr. Ross

We regard these figures as highly unsatisfactory. Will the Minister take steps immediately to improve the prospects of young men being given the advantage of this course?

Mr. Godber

The purpose of these courses should be made quite clear. They are intended as a demonstration to employers to show the advantage of systematic full-time training in basic skills. For this purpose, I should have thought that the numbers here were adequate. I am perfectly prepared to consider any points which the hon. Gentleman cares to put to me, but that is the purpose of these particular courses, and I think that the numbers are sufficient for it.

Mr. Bence

Will the Minister confer with his right hon. Friend and point out to him that it is very difficult to encourage people to train in crafts where industry is declining and at the same time ask them to retrain in crafts for industries which are not there? Are we to have some action to get the new industries so that work will be there after training is provided?

Mr. Godber

That is not quite the same point. We must give as wide a range of training and retraining at Government training centres as we can, and, as the hon. Gentleman knows, we are expanding this range.

25. Mr. Millan

asked the Minister of Labour what expansion in his Department's scheme for full-time training of first-year apprentices in Scotland is expected in the financial year 1964–65; and how many boys and girls are currently taking such courses.

23. Mr. Willis

asked the Minister of Labour how many boys have so far been given training this year in Scotland within the scheme of full-time training of first year apprentices; and what is the estimate for next year.

Mr. Godber

Eighty boys are currently attending first-year apprentice training courses in Scotland. By the end of the financial year 1964–65, this figure is expected to increase to 128.

Mr. Millan

The figures are extremely small. Is the Minister doing anything to expand the range of courses? Are not courses at present largely confined to engineering and trades associated with engineering? What about the building trades, for instance? Is there anything provided for them?

Mr. Godber

On the first point, I repeat what I said in answer to the previous Question; that these courses are for demonstration purposes and I think that there is a reasonable coverage here. As regards additional trades, we are doing more, particularly as the new Government training centres come into being. We are doing a certain amount also in the building trades.

Mr. Prentice

The Minister has told both my hon. Friends that these courses are for demonstration purposes. Even if this were the original intention two years or so ago, now, in the light of the industrial training White Paper, with its particular reference to the need for a year's organised training as part of normal apprenticeship, ought not these facilities to be expanded on a much bigger scale than the right hon. Gentleman contemplates?

Mr. Godber

No, I do not think so. I think that we should proceed on this basis. The Industrial Training Bill will put firmly on employers the obligation to accept their duty to train, and train effectively. It will put the onus on them, by reason of the levy. But these classes are an example to employers of how they should carry out their training. If a board in a particular industry, when set up, wants to do more, I think that we should wait and let it carry it out.

Mr. Ross

Does not the Minister appreciate that the figures which he has just given to my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Craigton (Mr. Millan), as against the ones which he gave me, mean that there are only 33 young men given this first-year apprenticeship course outside Glasgow, for the whole of Scotland? We are inclined to agree that it is a valuable demonstration, but a demonstration of the Government's inadequacies.

Mr. Godber

I do not accept that at all. I have explained the purpose for which these courses are run. With the opening of the new training centres, we shall have several schemes in different parts of Scotland.