HC Deb 22 January 1964 vol 687 cc1060-1
8. Mr. Goodhart

asked the Secretary of State for War why the number of administrative, executive and clerical grade civil servants employed by the War Office has increased by more than 10 per cent. since 1st April, 1958, while the number of soldiers has decreased by more than 125,000 during this period.

Mr. Kirk

The transfer of functions from the Ministry of Supply to the War Department resulted in an increase of staff in these grades by about 10 per cent. Since then there has been a substantial reduction in the number of posts providing the administrative backing for the smaller all-Regular Army. But because of our policy of civilianisation, the total numbers in the civilian grades referred to has altered very little.

Mr. Goodhart

Is my hon. Friend aware that Professor Parkinson might draw different conclusions from the actual figures? At some future date, can my hon. Friend make a statement about civilianisation, in the House or outside, giving specific examples of how civil servants have stepped into soldiers' shoes?

Mr. Kirk

There has been a reduction of about 10 per cent. in the posts covered by the grades to which the Question refers, excluding staff transferred to the Ministry of Public Building and Works. Because of the smaller size of the Regular Army, we are now using civilians for posts which used to be filled by soldiers. If my hon. Friend will put down a specific Question asking for specific information, I will give it to him.

Mr. J. Morris

Does the hon. Gentleman recall the criticisms of the Estimates Committee in 1962 of War Office staffing, and that it was admitted by one witness that the staff of 7,000 men aimed at was merely a figure thought up; that there had been a failure to have a balanced reduction of staff and that the reduction had been in the clerical and lower branch staff grades only, a reduction in typists and tea boys and not top brass? What has been done since then and has that trend been reversed?

Mr. Kirk

We have naturally studied the matter very carefully since then and we think that we are approaching the target of 7,000 at which we are aiming.