HC Deb 21 January 1964 vol 687 cc962-81
Mr. Whitelaw

I beg to move, in page 10, line 1, to leave out "eight" and insert "twelve".

The purpose of this Amendment is to increase the number of independent members on the Central Training Council from two to six. We discussed this point in Committee, when it was suggested mat it might be most helpful to the Central Training Council to have members from, for example, the professional institutions, technical examining bodies, universities and research institutes. It was argued that the two places initially prescribed in the Bill for independent members would be insufficient, and I agreed then that we would consider whether the number should be increased, and how we should do it.

We feel it right to increase the number. We do not feel that, even after this increase, the maximum number of 33 members will be so high that it might in any way inhibit the Council's usefulness. We think that this is a worth-while and proper increase. It will enable us to get the benefit of the experience of some valuable people.

Mr. Prentice

Once again, I welcome the fact that the Government are meeting a point made in Committee, but I should have been happier had the Parliamentary Secretary given us a little more information about how the Government now see the position. We specifically discussed in Committee various organisations that some hon. Members thought ought to be consulted, such as the Institute of Chartered Accountants, the Institution of Mechanical Engineers and various other professional bodies.

Although I welcome this proposed change, some slight confusion may have arisen from the fact that if the Amendment is carried there will be 12 extra members, six of whom are to be appointed after consultation with the Minister of Education and the Secretary of State for Scotland. In a sense all 12 are to be what might loosely be called "educational" members of the Central Training Council—six of them, presumably, rather more educational than the others; in other words, I suppose that six of them will be people actually practising education, or teaching in universities, or principals of technical colleges, or people working in C.A.T.s and other institutions, while the other six will be presumably those at one stage removed, such as the representatives of the various learned societies and institutions that have been mentioned.

I should also like to know to what extent teachers' organisations will be directly consulted when these appointments are made either by the Minister of Labour or the Minister of Education, who is involved in this group of appointments. All hon. Members will recently have had a memorandum from the Association of Teachers in Technical Institutions, which makes some very valid points about the way in which the Bill should work. Among other things, the Association claims as a weakness in this Measure that there is no provision for representation on the Central Training Council or on the industrial training boards of the A.T.T.I. or other organisations representing those actually engaged in technical education.

We do not want to press for direct representation because, on the whole, we do not see this body as consisting of representatives but of people appointed on their own individual merits after consultation with interested parties. Whether they come from among the employers, the trade unions or any other body, it is important that they should not be just the big guns of those organisations but people appointed by the Minister simply because he thinks that they have the necessary qualities for this work, and, once on the body, they should not be representative but should all be engaged in a training operation.

We therefore did not feel able to go all the way with the A.T.T.I., but we certainly think that that Association along with other organisations, should at some stage be involved in consultation, and we think that the Association is right in believing that the people appointed should be those with experience in education, and not just people who may have a reputation based on former experience only. Therefore, the views expressed by the Association have some validity, and should be taken into account in making this attempt. While we welcome the Amendment, we should like a little further information from the Minister.

Mr. Whitelaw

I can probably answer the hon. Member best by saying that in all this it is our determination to obtain the best possible people, as individuals, to serve on this Central Training Council. Both my right hon. Friend and my right hon. Friends the Minister of Education and the Secretary of State for Scotland will naturally seek to ensure that they get the best possible individuals. The hon. Member is quite right in thinking that we, as well as he, do not wish to have these people as representatives of particular organisations, but wish to have them on the Council for the individual contribution they can make. At the same time, that contribution will be particularly valuable if it comes from people who are engaged in work in particular aspects, such as technical education.

In order to ensure that we get these people on the boards, it will be the intention of my right hon. Friend and my right hon. Friends the Minister of Education and the Secretary of State for Scotland to have the widest possible discussions with the various organisations concerned, but we do not think it right to write into the Bill that we must have consultations, because the moment we do that people will believe that they have the right in consultation to suggest a certain person, who then becomes their representative. We think it right to consult all concerned, but in the final event, my right hon. Friend will wish to ensure that he appoints the individuals whom he feels will be best qualified to give the Central Training Council the benefit of their advice.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. Harold Finch (Bedwellty)

I beg to move, in page 10, line 3, at the end to insert: and one of whom shall be appointed after consultation with the Institute of Youth Employment Officers". The Amendment will provide that at least one member of the Central Training Council shall be a member of the youth employment service. It is already specified in many apprenticeship schemes in engineering and agriculture and horticulture that the authorities operating the schemes shall act in periodic consultation with representatives of the youth employment service. In a Bill of this kind, which seeks to widen and improve apprenticeship schemes, it is only right to provide that such an officer should become a member of the Central Training Council.

I fully appreciate why industrialists continue to act in close co-operation with the youth employment service. Years of experience have taught them that youth employment officers are essential to the working of an efficient apprenticeship scheme. It is part of the duty of these officers to give vocational guidance. They are there to prepare young men and women for their entry into industry. The years have long since passed when I was a young man and when one finished school on a Friday and on the following Monday was thrown into industry, into the mine or factory where we had never been and where we found strange men and strange faces and where we had to go without any idea of what was before us. Such education as we had had stopped at school and any knowledge of the industry which we had was purely theoretical.

In recent years, the youth employment officer has become the key man in this process. He consults headmasters and other teachers. Not long ago I had the interesting experience of visiting a South Wales switch gear works where boys and girls who would be leaving school in about six months were being shown round. There was a very good apprenticeship scheme and these boys and girls were able to see how the industry worked and what sort of industry it was before they left school. They were given an insight into the sort of work which they might be doing. When they returned to school, they were able to consult their teachers and their parents with some idea of what it would be like in such a factory or office or workshop.

The recruiting of young men and women for industry must be made as smooth and as efficient as possible. Ministers come and go and it is all very well to say that it is intended to consult youth employment officers. In a later Amendment, the Minister proposes that the Iron and Steel Board should be able to appoint a representative to the Council. I do not object to that, but if it is essential to specify the Iron and Steel Board, it is surely essential to specify youth employment officers.

6.15 p.m.

Youth employment officers consult headmasters, teachers, parents and employers and they know what grants are available and what preparations have to be made for a given course of training. If the Bill is to be a success and is to work as smoothly as possible, these officers should be represented on the Council. The youth employment officer is an intermediary between the school and the employer, he is an adviser, the third man in the partnership between industry and education. He has to know the nature of the training and to be able to give general advice. If the Bill is to be made a success, there will have to be consultations between employers and education authorities and the youth employment officer ought to know what is going on.

We are passing through a second industrial revolution and I know that hon. Members opposite are as anxious as we are that these new technical and scientific changes should occur as smoothly and as efficiently as possible. One of the most important aspects of that will be to ensure that youth employment officers are represented on the Central Council as well as the local boards.

Mr. Whitelaw

I agree with the hon. Member for Bedwellty (Mr. Finch) that the youth employment service is an essential feature of these training proposals and I also agree with him about the extremely valuable part which it plays in the life of young people in their very important transition from school to industry. We cannot over-emphasise the importance of its task.

At the same time, the hon. Member will have appreciated what I said earlier—that we do not think it appropriate to write into the Bill a specific consultation with any one organisation. The hon. Member referred to a later Government Amendment which mentions the Iron and Steel Board. I hope that I shall be able to show him that there is no connection between that Amendment and this, that there is a special reason for that Amendment and that there is not the parallel which he sought to draw.

The Amendment would put youth employment officers in a unique position, for they would be the one organisation specifically named as having to be consulted about membership of the Central Training Council. I am the first to recognise the value of their contribution, but we are convinced that it would not be right to write into the Bill that any one particular organisation should have to be consulted on the choosing of members for the Council. We believe that it is right to have a wide measure of consultation, as the Bill provides and which will be undertaken by my right hon. Friend, my right hon. Friend the Minister of Education and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland.

Mr. Finch

The Parliamentary Secretary will appreciate that some youth employment officers are not directly under the Ministry of Labour nor directly under the Ministry of Education. They are a sort of go-between and it is because of their unique position that they should be represented on the Council.

Mr. Whitelaw

The hon. Member is substantially correct although, as he will appreciate, some youth employment officers come directly under my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour as in certain parts of the country our Department runs the youth employment service. Generally, however, they are the responsibility of the local authorities. This, however, does not invalidate my point.

I was saying that a wide measure of consultation will be carried out as is provided in the Bill. We do not think it right to name any one organisation as having to be consulted. We recognise, of course, the value of the contribution which can, and will, be given by the youth employment service to the Central Training Council and in my right hon. Friend's decision as to whom finally to appoint to the Council he will remember the important contribution which can be made by the youth employment service. I must advise the House that it would not be right to write the Amendment as such into the Bill.

Mr. Cyril Bence (Dunbartonshire, East)

I am sorry that the Parliamentary Secretary is unable to accept the Amendment, which has been so ably proposed by my hon. Friend the Member for Bedwellty (Mr. Finch), but he was quite right in saying that the youth employment service is unique. This bridge which we have constructed is in its infancy, but in the technological age into which we are passing it will be the most important link between the formal education of the schools and technical colleges and the ever-changing industry and technical and scientific curriculum of a dynamic society. The placing of our boys and girls in positions in industry, commerce and trade fitting their education or character will depend more and more upon the efficiency of this bridge. Therefore, all along the line, from the Central Training Council to the training boards, the bridge should be used at every stage to ensure that the youth officer acts as a link between the educational curriculum, general educational training and the employer.

The Central Training Council is to include six members representing employers' organisations; the Clause specifies that these people are to be represented. There will be six members representing employees or trade unions, two from the nationalised industries and not more than six chairmen of the industrial training boards. Provision is also made for the appointment of other members by the Minister. after consultation with the Secretary of State and the Minister of Education". One institution which is left out is what I call the bridge.

My hon. Friend the Member for Bedwellty has put forward an important point and I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary and his right hon. Friend will reconsider it. We are all agreed that in the next decade we must make a drive to modernise Britain. This bridge is probably the most important link of all. When we start the process at the beginning, let us ensure that we include this bridge in our discussions in bringing together our educational system and industry and enabling the youth officers to give better advice and our children to have confidence. The Amendment would ensure that we start in the right way by using this important link between the school and the factory or industry.

When I left school in 1917, we were merely "thrown into the pot". Our parents and teachers knew little about it and those who received us knew little. The age of the amateur way in which we were placed in professions and trades and were trained has gone and is dead. For goodness sake, in creating a new attitude let us begin right and bring in the youth employment officer, giving him his right status and the right relationship with both sides of the industry. The Amendment proposes a step in the right direction.

Mr. Austen Albu (Edmonton)

I support my hon. Friends. There are a number of arguments for making an exception about consulting the youth employment officers. They are a body without vested interests, apart from the fact that they form a bridge between education and the various sectors of employment. They are very much outside the vested interests of the other bodies to be represented on the Central Training Council. They have a special knowledge of young people, but there are one or two other reasons why they need a special position.

First, in some industries there is danger that the training boards, and, therefore, the views expressed on the Train- ing Council, may be dominated by federations of employers or firms who are members of federations, and perhaps, on the other side, by the trade unions also, whereas if the Bill is to be successful it must operate over a quite large area of firms which are not federated and some of which may not even be union organised. Here, the youth employment officers will play a valuable part.

Then, there is the increasing number of occupations for which, up to now, there has been no scheme of training, certainly no apprenticeship. There is the danger that in the early days the operation of the Bill will be dominated by the apprenticeship trades, but, as we agreed in Committee, the number of non-apprenticeship trades and occupations which will be learned in a quite different way from apprenticeship will grow. In this connection, the youth employment officers will have a special contribution to make because they will have knowledge of the wide variety of occupations which fall outside the accepted arrangements between employer and employee for training in trades which have a tradition of training.

It may be that hitherto the Youth Employment Service has not had the status that it should have, but it is bound to have increasing status in the future as we take more seriously the movement from education into industry and try to narrow the gap between the two. This might not be necessary in the highly-organised firms or industries with long apprenticeship traditions, however bad they are—presumably, they will get together and modernise themselves—but a large number of occupations do not fall within these categories and it will be important to have somebody to speak for them.

6.30 p.m.

Mr. Ede (South Shields)

I support the Amendment. The most important part of a youth's preparation for his life's work consists in making a smooth transition between the school and whatever his occupation may be, so that it shall not be the plunge into a bath of cold water that it too often is now, in which the youth gets discouraged by finding himself in completely new surroundings having little connection with what has gone before in his life. The first employment should be a continuation of the education process and should be approached in the spirit of an educational process. The requirement on the school is that the child should be educated having regard to his age, ability and aptitude. I have always contended from the first time that the word appeared in what is now the Education Act that "aptitude" is the most important of the three things which the teacher has to consider in dealing wih the child. Aptitude is the re-endowment of the world which comes from the recruitment of a new individual to the life of the community. It is what marks off that individual from every other of the persons who may be in the community in which that young person is being brought up.

Too often now too little regard is paid even by parents to the child's aptitude. How many boys move into occupations in which they are bored stiff because of the failure to recognise that the boy's temperament is not attuned to that sort of occupation? Within our limited population every thwarted and distorted life is a terrible loss to the industrial efficiency of the nation. I hope that there will be between the schools and the people who are responsible for having the first contacts with boys and girls moving into industry a close relationship and an effort to study the needs of the individual child.

I recollect when I was a teacher having a pupil who was gifted in certain directions. I arranged for him to be taken to a municipal electricity works at a time when I was chairman of the municipal electricity committee. He turned up for three days but on the fourth day he did not arrive. After he had stayed away for two days I went round to find out what had happened. His mother said, "He is not going there again. He is to have a job where he can keep his hands clean". There were a good many mothers like that. I am not at all sure that they are the right sort of people to bring up boys of 14 to 16 years of age. The boy was to keep his hands clean, and so the mother made him a stockbroker's clerk. I hope that he kept his hands clean, but I have heard some stories which have made me think that he might have been sub- jected to certain transactions which would get his hands dirty in ways that would not be removable by the application of soap and water.

It is a serious thing when a human being endowed with certain attributes fails to secure the opportunity to apply them throughout his working life because of stupid conventions about what are regarded as respectable occupations. I sincerely hope that in the working of these measures we shall be able to take some steps which will ensure that these attributes, which represent the individual, will be able to receive development in a sympathetic atmosphere. I hope that in that atmosphere the knowledge which has been acquired of the individual in the school will be at the disposal of the people who are responsible for his first training in industry so that the transition can be as easy as possible and will not represent too great a break in a life which ought to be continuous.

Mr. Prentice

My hon. and right hon. Friends have made a powerful case for the Amendment. I appeal to the Minister to have further thoughts on the matter. All I need do is to try to reply to what the Parliamentary Secretary said when he accused us on this side of the House of wanting to put the youth employment officers in a unique position. It was true that in previous discussion his view and ours was that we did not want to think in terms of representatives. In a sense, I confess that the Amendment is therefore a little out of step with what we then said, but for the reasons given by my hon. and right hon. Friends there is a case for regarding the Youth Employment Service as being in a unique position in relation to this function.

I would emphasise first that there is nobody else on the Central Training Council to represent the young people themselves. The Bill is a major operation to affect the lives of young people as they leave school. We are going to provide a Council representative of employers, trade unionists and other people, most of whom in the nature of things left school a long time ago. It would be an interesting and unorthodox experiment if one thought in terms of putting a couple of 16-year-olds on the Central Training Council. As none of us has been bold enough to suggest that, I suggest to the Minister that youth employment officers are the people who are in contact with young people before and after they leave school. They know their hopes and fears and they ought to be in close touch with developments which will affect industrial training programmes for these young people. They have a unique opportunity therefore to represent in some measure the views of young people themselves.

In the light of what my right hon. Friend the Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede) has said, there is in addition urgent need to expand the Youth Employment Service, and that expansion should come in step with the operation of the Bill, if the Bill is to have the effect we all warn, a great deal more careful attention will require to be given to problems of vocational guidance. At the moment the Youth Employment Service has the function of giving vocational guidance up to the age of 18. Generally it does that tremendously well, but in some parts of the country the service is under great stress and is understaffed for this task.

We feel that this function needs to be improved and expanded beyond the age of 18. We should like to see the limit raised by stages to 21 years, and some would like to see it go even further than that. If we are to regard it as a necessary corollary to the Bill, it is important that the Youth Employment Service should be represented at all levels, on industrial training boards, on the committees to be established under Clause 3, and at the top, on the Central Training Council, which is the immediate purpose of the Amendment.

I urge the Minister to consider this and see whether he can accept the Amendment or, if he cannot accept it on the spot, think about it again before the Bill goes to another place, because I think we have made a unique case, which has not been answered, for the direct representation of the Youth Employment Service on the Council.

Mr. Whitelaw

I do not think I would disagree with anything that has been said by any hon. Member about the value of the Youth Employment Service, the importance of its task or the importance of the contribution which it has to make to this Industrial Training Bill. We must always take—I certainly did—very great note of the valuable contributions made by the right hon. Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede), who speaks from very great experience in these matters.

However, despite all that has been said I come back to the position very clearly put forward by the hon. Member for East Ham. North (Mr. Prentice), who agreed that we did not wish to have representatives on the Central Training Council from particular organisations, or, in general, to have these particular organisations specifically mentioned in the Bill for consultation. But he suggested that the Youth Employment Service was in this respect in a unique position. Honestly, despite all that has been said about its importance, I cannot see that the case has been made out. If it is to be mentioned, then I think there are other organisations which would promptly press a very strong claim to be mentioned also. Therefore, I do not think it is right specifically to mention it in the Bill.

What I should like to say is that in making their appointments to the Central Training Council my right hon. Friends would take very careful notice of what has been said on this Amendment about the value of the contribution that can be made by the Youth Employment Service, remember the views which have been put forward and take very proper and full account of them.

I believe that that is as far as we can go in this matter. I believe that it would create a difficult precedent if we were to mention any one organisation, no matter how valuable the contribution that it might have to make.

Mr. Finch

I regret that the hon. Gentleman is not prepared to go the whole way in this matter. If there is objection to consultation with the Institute of Youth Employment Officers, would he not agree that at least a youth employment officer should be on the Council, leaving aside any question of the organisation or of consultation. It has been pointed out that these people are in an important position. It is not an organisation like the Iron and Steel Board or the mining industry. These people are already engaged in this work and doing this job. Surely it is not asking too much from the Minister that we should have an assurance that a youth employment officer will be on the Central Training Council. It is monstrous that when these officers are engaged in this work the Minister is not prepared to put a representative of them on the Council. It is an amazing situation.

Mr. Whitelaw

The hon. Gentleman has gone a little further than any argument I put forward. He has suggested that because I said we did not feel that we could write into the Bill that the Youth Employment Service would be consulted before the appointments were made, it meant that we were not prepared to appoint a youth employment officer to the Central Training Council. That goes very much further than anything I suggested, and it certainly would not be any part of my case. Indeed, I should have thought that when I said that in making the appointments my right hon. Friends concerned would take very careful account of all that had been said in this debate, I was arguing in exactly the opposite direction; and I think that should give considerable comfort to the hon. Member for Bedwellty (Mr. Finch).

Amendment negatived.

6.45 p.m.

The Minister of Labour (Mr. J. B. Godber)

I beg to move, in page 10, line 3, at the end to insert: (3) The Central Training Council shall from time to time, and whenever directed by the Minister, make to him a report of its activities. This Amendment seeks to take account in some degree at any rate of the requests which were put to me in Committee in relation to the report of the Central Training Council. I will not pretend that it goes altogether as far as hon. Members opposite ask me to go, but I think they will acknowledge that I have given some thought to the arguments they put forward at that time. It seemed to me that it was valuable to make some change, but at the same time I wanted to preserve a degree of flexibility. That is what I have tried to do in putting forward an Amendment in these terms.

I would call attention particularly to the exact wording, because it leaves the opportunity for the Central Training Council, if it so wishes, to put in annual reports. The wording does not prevent that. Indeed, if it felt very strongly, it could put in reports more frequently. Also, it leaves to the Minister of the day the opportunity to call for a report at any particular moment. This gives the degree of flexibility that I wanted.

I did not want it to be purely on an annual basis. Perhaps we do too much on an annual basis. I remember being very much interested some years ago listening to the late Aneurin Bevan speaking at the Government Dispatch Box and saying most vehemently that he could never understand why everything had to be done on an annual basis just because we were once an agrarian society—why, just because we had an annual harvest, everything had to be done on an annual basis. He was warmly cheered from the other side of the House on that occasion, and I thought it was a most interesting argument. I do not argue quite so strongly or so heatedly on this occasion as Aneurin Bevan did then. I merely indicate that an annual basis is not always necessarily the right one to have.

I have tried to meet the Opposition by providing facilities so that the Council may, if it wishes, put in an annual report and so that the Minister would at any time be in a position to call for reports. Although this is really a compromise between the position which I took up and that which hon. Members opposite urged on me, I hope they will feel it right to accept the Amendment.

Mr. Prentice

I express our appreciation that our points have been partly met. As I said earlier, we feel that we have made some modest improvements to the Bill and done some of the Government's homework for them. We wish that some of the other improvements we suggested had been accepted. However, the Government still have opportunities to do that later on.

I hesitate to argue strongly for an annual report in view of the illustrious support that the right hon. Gentleman has called in aid, but I hope that the Council will, either off its own bat or at his request, make fairly frequent reports, because hon. Members and people outside the House ought to have the opportunity to check what is happening. The right hon. Gentleman did not say to what extent he thought reports should be published. Perhaps that comes more in conjunction with the next Amendment. At any rate, we want to provide in the form of our next Amendment or by some other means hon. Members and people outside the House with an opportunity to see what is happening, to help and to create public opinion on these matters.

Mr. A. E. P. Duffy (Colne Valley)

I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, at the end to add: and the Minister shall lay a copy of every such report before Parliament". Although we may have the best will in the world, we are entitled to have some doubts about the scope and character of the Central Training Council. We may contend at this stage that it should be no more than a central co-ordinating authority. But I think that even this modest rôle is bound to lead to the establishment of certain standards of training which in turn will give some indication of the lines of research that are necessary, which in its turn will lead to the provision of a nucleus of an inspectorate. Moreover, the impact of technological advances will compel the continuous adaptation of training services as well as drawing the Central Training Council more and more—in collaboration with the Ministry's new manpower research unit—into forecasting future requirements of manpower not only in a given industry but in a given occupation.

Who is better placed to comment on these trends and developments than experts and specialists of the kind whom we hope it is proposed to recruit to the Council? Who is better placed to comment on these developments than a chairman of the calibre the Minister said in Committee he was seeking for the Council? The reports from such men and women deserve the widest possible audience. In other words, the reports should be discussed in this House.

These reports should be presented to the House not merely for the information that they will provide, not merely for their statistical value, nor merely for the purpose of comparing what happened the year before: they should be presented to achieve what in the early stages may be the greatest requirement of all, namely, the widest possible publicity.

We have ample precedents for annual reports to Parliament. The Ministry of Education, the Ministry of Pensions and National Insurance, and other Departments which deal with social problems present such reports. These reports contain statistics which can be compared with what happened in previous years. They have a genuine value, and I think that an annual report in this case would be especially welcome.

During the Committee stage I asked the Minister whether he would be kind enough to ask the Council to make a report on its activities, and he agreed to do so. I am now asking him whether he will be gracious enough to publish a copy of such a report in the House.

Mr. James Boyden (Bishop Auckland)

I support what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Duffy). I am grateful to the Minister for coming as far as he did with us or this question, as I think he conceded the substance of the case. But, as the Minister will recollect, during the Committee stage there was general agreement with my sentiments that this scheme must be accompanied by a massive propaganda effort to interest the whole community in it, and this report would be one way of achieving that object.

I cannot see why the idea of an annual report has been discarded. It will be a discipline for the Central Training Council, and I am sorry that the Minister and his Department have discarded it. It is all very well for the Minister to say as he has done about his Department's work, that the material appears in other places, but the fact is that the absence of an annual report by his own Department detracts to some extent from publicity for the work it does.

We are getting a new scheme under way, and the professional public, who study these things closely, get into the habit of looking for a report on certain occasions. If the right hon. Gentleman does not agree to publish it automatically annually, I hope that he will at least publish a report at regular intervals so that the professional world can see what is happening.

Mr. Speaker

Order. We are talking about whether the Minister should lay a copy of every such report before Parliament.

Mr. Boyden

I hope that that will be done. Putting it before Parliament will be one way of providing the information in a way that the public will take up. Hansard is followed fairly carefully by professional bodies, and if a report is not laid before Parliament it will not receive the wide publicity that we consider it should receive. I cannot stress too strongly that unless the Minister takes this simple way of increasing the amount of publicity given to the Council he will not be able to do some of the things that he wants to do, because he has to carry the community with him. Annual reports to Parliament are therefore essential.

Mr. Bence

I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Boyden) that from time to time we should have laid before this House a report on the proceedings of the C.T.C. and the training boards. The right hon. Gentleman referred to what was said by the late Aneurin Bevan. On that occasion he was criticising the annual Budget and saying that we might have two Budgets each year instead of one, because the pastoral habit of sowing and reaping from one season to another did not necessarily coincide with what happened in financial matters and in the Treasury.

It is important that the report from the C.T.C. should be laid before Parliament. If such a report is not laid before the House, I take it that we, as the Opposition—though it may well be the right hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends at the time when the report is published—will have to provide a Supply Day to debate it. If, however, a report is presented to the House, the Government of the day will have to provide time to debate it. I therefore think that it is to the right hon. Gentleman's advantage to accept our Amendment.

Our modern society is advancing very rapidly, and I do not think that we can afford to take the risk of not having a report from such an important institution as the C.T.C. We are creating as it were a new State institution. We receive reports from the nationalised industries. We receive reports from various Departments. We receive reports from the Public Accounts Committee, and from the Estimates Committee. The receipt of a report from the C.T.C. will give us an opportunity to discuss what I consider will be an increasingly important institution, concerned as it will be with education, industry, and youth employment services. Unless our Amendment is accepted, we may not have an opportunity to discuss the work of this important body, and I hope, therefore, that the right hon. Gentleman will give us an assurance that all the reports he receives from this body will be presented to the House.

7.0 p.m.

Mr. Godber

I have listened with interest to the points put forward in relation to this Amendment. I thought that the hon. Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Duffy) put it very well when he talked of the need for publicity, and I thought that the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Boyden) in following up the point made by his hon. Friend, put forward a logical argument in this regard, namely, that if we are to get the full value from these reports, they must be made available as freely as possible.

I also listened carefully to the point made by the hon. Member for Dunbartonshire, East (Mr. Bence). The hon. Gentleman must not provoke me too far along the lines of who is going to be in opposition. Then I might say something to him about the need for the retraining, and, possibly, the rehabilitation, of some hon. Members opposite, if they were to seek to take over the immense duties of office which have been so brilliantly carried out by the present Government. This Bill might be just in time. But I do not think that there will be any need for that for some time to come.

A good case has been made out for the Amendment to the proposed Amendment. I can endorse what hon. Members have said, and I therefore propose to accept it as it stands. I shall certainly see that these reports are made available, and I hope that the fullest advantage will be taken of them, even if we do not get them exactly at annual intervals.

Amendment to the proposed Amendment agreed to.

Proposed words, as amended, there inserted in the Bill.