HC Deb 20 January 1964 vol 687 cc715-20
The Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. Christopher Soames)

With your permission, Mr. Speaker, and that of the House, I should like to make a statement on the outcome of the second session of the European Fisheries Conference under the chairmanship of my hon. Friend the Minister of State at the Foreign Office, which adjourned last Friday.

A draft Convention providing for a new fisheries régime has been drawn up with the support of most delegations, who have agreed to recommend it to their Governments.

Under the draft Convention, signatory States would have power to regulate fisheries within a 12-mile zone, on the following principles. Within the inner six miles, fishing would be reserved to the fishermen of the coastal State. The foreign fishermen who have traditionally fished the three to six-mile zone would be given time to adapt themselves to their exclusion from it. In the case of the United Kingdom limits, this phase-out would end at 31st December, 1965, with a further year in areas where new baselines can properly be drawn.

Within the outer six miles, fishing would be reserved to fishermen of the coastal State and without limit of time to the traditional fisheries of foreign fishermen. The right of the coastal State to regulate fisheries over the whole 12-mile zone would enable it to enforce internationally agreed conservation measures, as well as its own regulations on a non-discriminatory basis.

The Convention would also provide that a coastal State might exclude particular areas from the full application of the traditional fishing rights in order to give preference to a local population overwhelmingly dependent on coastal fisheries.

There would be provision for arbitration in the event of disputes between the parties.

The conference has recognised the importance of fisheries conservation and all delegations are agreed upon urging effective and intensified action by the North-East Atlantic Fisheries Commission, to which Governments have entrusted the responsibility for conservation measures.

The conference has also addressed itself to the need for an up-to-date code governing the behaviour of fishing vessels on the grounds and has invited the United Kingdom Government to convene a technical conference open to all States fishing the North Atlantic to prepare such a code.

The progress so far made is gratifying and I am sure that the House will share the hope that, when the conference reconvenes on 26th February, full agreement with the widest possible participation will be achieved.

Mr. Peart

Is theright hon. Gentleman aware that we on this side of the House welcome the progress that has been made? Will he confirm or deny that, if the draft Convention is accepted, there could be dangers to our near-water fleet by restricting their fishing rights near to the coasts of other parties to the Convention?

What about those countries which refuse to subscribe to the Convention? Is it possible to say now which they are? This is important. What will happen if certain countries which are involved with us do not sign the Convention itself?

Could the right hon. Gentleman explain about base lines? He mentioned a limit of 12 miles. I read on Saturday an excellent diplomatic report in The Times which suggested that base lines would be decided by a distance of 24 miles from point to point. Is that so? Would the right hon. Gentleman also confirm that the next main item on the agenda of the conference will be marketing? After all, if we are to have effective territorial limits we are in a rather invidious position, since we allow the free importation of fish products. Will there be an attempt to get concessions from the E.E.C. and Scandinavian countries on free landings?

Finally, on conservation, the Minister mentioned the North-East Atlantic Commission. Could he be specific about agreement on conservation?

Mr. Soames

The hon. Gentleman first asked whether our near or middle-water fleets would be likely to be jeopardised by this agreement. The answer to that is "No". Whatever parties sign this Convention, we will have access to their waters as they will have access to ours, subject to any provisos there might be within the Convention.

The hon. Gentleman's second question concerned which countries intend to sign and which do not. The present position is that it is ad referendum to Governments. The conference will not reconvene until the end of February and I am sure that the hon. Gentleman would not like me to prejudge the issue of which Governments will decide to sign and which will not.

Thirdly, there is the question of base lines and how they will be drawn. They will be drawn according to the Geneva Convention on Territorial Sea, 1958, to which we are a party and which we have ratified. This is what will guide us and other countries in drawing base lines.

Finally, the hon. Gentleman asked whether I could confirm that trade in fish between the countries—he called it mar-eting—will be on the agenda when the conference resumes in February. I can confirm that it will come up at that meeting.

Mr. G. R. Howard

Is my right hon. Friend aware that members of the inshore fishing community will be grateful to the Government for this step forward? At this stage it is perhaps a little difficult to understand exactly how this thing will work. My right hon. Friend mentioned base lines, but I think that we shall have to look at this very carefully.

Realising that we have to do this phase-out, and that it will be up to 1965, may I ask my right hon. Friend for an assurance that, when the conference reopens, those countries which do not intend to sign the Convention will be made to understand that we import frozen fish products and that if they are not parties to the Convention we must reserve our right to take action against them in this matter?

Mr. Soames

The whole question of trade in fish is coming up at the February meeting. I take the point put by my hon. Friend, but I do not think that he would wish me to prejudge what will happen at the conference.

Mr. Crosland

While we welcome the agreement, particularly for the inshore industry, and while it is true that we cannot prejudge who will ratify and who will not, is it not the case that we must face unpleasant possibilities and that there is a possibility that Iceland, Norway and Denmark will not ratify? What action will be taken if it turns out to be the case—as is rumoured likely—that the Danes will continue to claim access to our 12-mile limit while claiming for themselves the complete 12-mile limit round Denmark, the Faroes and Greenland? What will the attitude of Her Majesty's Government be?

Mr. Soames

It would be premature to take it for granted that these countries will not sign, or that any single one of them will not sign. In so far as the countries off which we fish are parties to the agreement, our distant-water fleets will get benefit, for we will be able to fish between six and 12 miles off their shores. But if those countries do not sign the Convention, our inshore fleet will not be worse off than before.

Sir Douglas Marshall

Is my right hon. Friend aware how much the inshore fishing industry will welcome this statement and that for many years hon. Members have pressed for a great deal of what he has said? Is he aware that hon. Members realise what a great part the Foreign Office has played in this matter? Will my right hon. Friend have power to control factory fishing within the 12-mile limit?

Mr. Soames

I agree that the Foreign Office has borne the heat and burden of the day in this conference, under the chairmanship of the Minister of State, who has been of the greatest help in arriving at this agreement.

On the question of factory fishing, the situation is that up to 12-miles it will be controlled. If we decide that no factory fishing will take place up to 12 miles, it will be within our power so to provide as long as we proceed on a non-discriminatory basis and we do not ourselves indulge in any factory fishing.

Mr. Ross

Is the rght hon. Gentleman aware that we fully appreciate the difficulties of these negotiations? It would be wrong to think that we are there already; this is only a draft Convention. But it opens up the possibilities of considerable improvement if we can get agreement on the code of behaviour on fishing grounds and also on conservation.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we appreciate the advances that this will make in the position of our own inshore fishermen? We hope for improvements in regard to other fleets, but they will depend, as many hon. Members have said, on the attitude of the Scandinavian Governments. We hope for the best and we have some bargaining power in relation to access to markets.

I think that paragraph 4 of the statement is very important indeed. As to the ability of a nation to opt out in relation to a particular area, can this be done by agreement, or can it be a unilateral decision of the particular coastal State? This could be very important and could more or less destroy much of the agreement within the Convention.

Mr. Soames

I am grateful to the hon. Member for bringing up that last point. Paragraph 4 states: The Convention would also provide that a coastal State might exclude particular areas from the full application of the traditional fishing rights in order to give preference to a local population overwhelmingly dependent on coastal fisheries. The object of this paragraph is to cater for certain States which, at the moment, have a 12-mile limit and certain local populations totally dependent on fish. If they were to open up some areas of sea around their coasts to the other signatories to the agreement, they would be able to come in.

In other words, the agreement, which enables all traditional fishing to continue between six and 12 miles, gives scope for negotiation by countries which depend totally on fish, and part of the six to 12-mile zone could be reserved for them.

Mr. John Hall

On the subject of conservation, my right hon. Friend will remember the difficulties on previous regulations on fishing. Can he say what further steps have been taken to ensure that any further regulations are maintained?

Mr. Soames

Yes, I think that there is a great improvement in this agreement. Hitherto, the enforcement of conservation measures has not been for the coastal States to apply, but for the State from which the vessel was operating; now fishing regulations within the 12 miles will be within the hands of the coastal State itself.