§ 14. Mr. Wainwrightasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what would be the extra annual cost to the National Insurance Scheme if all widows upon reaching the age of 45 years were granted a widow's pension.
§ 32. Mr. Hannanasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what would be the cost of giving the full widow's pension to all widows of 45 years and over.
§ Mr. WainwrightIs it the cost that is preventing the Government from granting widows' pensions to widows over 45 with no dependants? Does he agree that we should not in this age ask a woman who has not worked probably for 20 or 25 years to return to industry and take up hard work again?
§ Mr. WoodAlthough the cost is considerable, that is not the main factor. The point here is that the change which the hon. Gentleman suggests would not have the effect of benefiting those widows who are most in need, because the £16 million would go mainly to widows who can and do support themselves by earnings. That is the reason.
§ Mr. HannanHow can the Minister decide which widows are not suffering under this Government? They are all suffering. Will he reconsider this matter in order to afford some relief by lowering the age, even if it is done by stages? After all, the same principle is adopted in connection with another aspect of 829 social security: the age for the repayment of post-war credits has been reduced.
§ Mr. WoodAs I have pointed out several times recently, widows under 50 and without children and who, therefore, do not qualify for widow's pension do qualify and are covered for sickness benefit and unemployment benefit.
26. Mrs. Slaterasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many women are now in receipt of industrial widow's pension, war widow's pension and widow's pension, respectively.
§ Mr. WoodIt is estimated that last September there were 23,000 pensions being paid under the Industrial Injuries scheme. 131,000 pensions under the war pensions scheme, and 537,000 pensions and allowances under the National Insurance scheme. Rather more than a million widows have retirement pensions on their late husband's insurance and a further substantial number have such pensions on their own insurance.
Mrs. SlaterDoes not the right hon. Gentleman realise that this last figure of 537,000 ordinary widows means that a very large proportion of widows, not industrial injuries widows or war widows, are suffering because the other two categories get higher pensions, and they can go on earning unlimited amounts? Is it not time that we stopped getting these hard-hearted replies and that these widows, no matter how they were widowed, were treated in exactly the same way?
§ Mr. WoodNo, Sir. In completely different schemes, as they have been since they were set up, naturally different conditions apply. It would be quite wrong to do as the hon. Lady suggests and to pick out certain features from one scheme in which they happen to be desirable and to put them into another scheme in which they do not apply.
Mrs. SlaterSurely the time has arrived when we should get away from that kind of outlook and look at these cases as cases of people, no matter whether they were in one class in 1945 or 1948, or in one or another class in the First World War. We should do 830 something to get them on to an equal level.
§ Mr. WoodIt has for a long time been the joint wish of the House to give preference to the war widow and the industrial widow. Therefore, the schemes under which they get their compensation are quite different from the National Insurance scheme.
§ 29. Mr. Lawsonasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance whether a widow in regular receipt of sickness benefit on her late husband's insurance may, under his regulations, at any time engage in gainful occupation without being deprived of that sickness benefit.
§ Mrs. ThatcherSickness benefit is paid only when a person is incapable of work. Exceptionally it may be paid to a person who, on medical advice, is doing a limited amount of therapeutic work.
§ Mr. LawsonWhile I appreciate the difficulties of paying sickness benefit and enabling a person to work, may I ask the hon. Lady whether she is aware that there must be many thousands of widows who do not receive any widow's pension a[...] all and simply subsist on this sickness benefit on their late husband's insurance, perhaps with the additional odd shilling or two of National Assistance? These people must be suffering real hardship. Has the hon. Lady any knowledge of how extensive this state of affairs is, and could she do anything about this category of persons?
§ Mrs. ThatcherIf the widow is drawing sickness benefit and is not entitled to widows pension, then I doubt very much whether anything could be done, short of giving compensation for widowhood as such, and I do not think at the moment that is the policy of any political party
§ Mr. LawsonDoes not the hon. Lady realise that there are many women who missed the widow's pension by, perhaps, a week or two or a month or two, and a large number of them must now be well over 50 years of age, having no right to receive pension until they reach 60 years of age? Does not the hon. Lady realise that many of these widows must be suffering real hardship and, perhaps, hidden hardship of which we are not aware?
§ Mrs. ThatcherThe amount which they receive by way of sickness benefit, as the hon. Gentleman knows, is £3 7s. 6d. a week basic benefit, which is exactly the amount to which they would be entitled either by way of widow's pension or retirement pension.
§ 31. Mr. Smallasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many widows who have not qualified for the widowed mother's allowance or the widow's pension are in regular receipt of sickness benefit for which they qualify under their late husband's National Insurance contributions.
§ Mrs. ThatcherInformation is not available in exactly the form for which the hon. Member asks, but I can tell him that the Department made an inquiry into the record of a number of widows who did not qualify for a National Insurance widow's pension following their period on widow's allowance. This showed that, in the second year after widowhood, about 6 per cent. of them received sickness benefit, title to which depended wholly or partly upon their husband's contributions, for six months or more.
§ Mr. SmallDoes the hon. Lady realise, as a result of her search for information, that the 6 per cent. claiming sickness benefit are a group of people who have no other opportunity of augmenting their income by earnings? This is the group of people between 50 and 60 years of age who normally live alone. Is there not obvious need for an inquiry into some means of meeting the needs of widows in this category? If they are living alone, dependent upon themselves, £3 7s. 6d. by no means represents luxury living standards at the present time.
§ Mrs. ThatcherAs the hon. Gentleman knows, the standard rate of National Insurance benefit went up by 10s. last May.
§ 33. Mr. Millanasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance whether he will introduce a graduated scale of benefit for widows so that none may be denied pension rights merely because she fails to qualify by a few days or months at the age of 50 years.
§ Mr. WoodI have nothing to add to the reply I gave my hon. Friend the 832 Member for Shrewsbury (Sir J. Langford-Holt), on 10th February.
§ Mr. MillanDoes not the Minister appreciate that this is a source of quite considerable hardship and many widows who are just disqualified from receiving widow's pension fail to understand the clear-cut distinction which is set at the age of 50? Is there anything administratively impracticable in introducing a sliding scale? If not, why does not the Minister introduce it?
§ Mr. WoodThe effect of a sliding scale would be to transfer this anomaly a little further back in the widow's life, to a younger age, but, in any event, it would suggest, as I said in answer to my hon. Friend last week, that the chances of a widow again getting employment increased gradually as she was younger, and I do not think that this is necessarily the case. What we should be doing, if we paid benefit under the age of 50, would be paying it to a large number of widows who were, in fact, working and earning.
§ Mr. LiptonDoes the right hon. Gentleman want to do anything about it at all, or is he just leaving the situation exactly as it is, with all its hardships and injustices?
§ Mr. WoodAs the hon. Gentleman knows, we have just taken action—with his support, I am glad to say—to increase the benefit paid to a number of widows.
§ 34. Mr. Rossasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what proposals he has to help widows in receipt of sickness benefit in respect of their late husband's National Insurance contributions.
§ Mrs. ThatcherMy right hon. Friend has no proposals for changing the present arrangements which date from 1957 and were introduced on the advice of the National Insurance Advisory Committee.
§ Mr. RossThe whole House will be very disappointed by that reply. Judging by the sympathetic ear which widows seem to have in the House, we are getting tired of the Westminster sound of, "No, no, no". By definition, are not these widows living alone and are not they incapable of earning because of sickness? Why cannot a definite category like this 833 be dealt with specially? The slogan of subsistence in sickness is not worthy of this House or the country.
§ Mrs, ThatcherThese widows who are drawing sickness benefit are in exactly the same position as the widow entitled to widow's pension who is too sick to be able to work.
§ Mr. MitchisonIs there not a case for letting seven fat years follow the seven lean ones since 1957?
§ Mrs. ThatcherI think that there have been twelve fat years following six lean ones.
§ Miss HerbisonThe Minister must be aware that the answers to all these later questions show very clearly the concern felt on this side of the House about the position of widows on sickness benefit and the position of all people on National Insurance benefits which are hopelessly inadequate at present. Will the Government, even at this late day in their life, do something to help all those who are on sickness, unemployment or widow's benefit?
§ Mrs. ThatcherThe record of this Government on widows' pensions shows that a great deal has been done. For example, the child of a widow will qualify for 37s. 6d. after the present Bill is passed, and this is to be compared with 7s. 6d. for the first child and 5s. for the second and subsequent children under the Labour Government.