HC Deb 17 February 1964 vol 689 cc816-9
3. Mr. Bence

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many unemployed and persons in receipt of sickness benefit receive National Assistance in Scotland.

Mrs. Thatcher

In Scotland at 17th December, 1963, 39,181 unemployed persons and 19,678 persons in receipt of sickness benefit were receiving weekly grants from the National Assistance Board.

Mr. Bence

Is it not a shocking reflection on the Government that during a period of so-called boom we have to give National Assistance to people who have contributed to the pensions system because their unemployment and sickness benefits are inadequate to maintain them at subsistence level? Is this not evidence that the levels should be raised forthwith?

Mrs. Thatcher

The number of people on National Assistance at any given time depends on the relationship between the scale rates and National Insurance rates. If the last time we put up the National Insurance rates we had not put up the National Assistance rates the number on National Assistance today would have been very much smaller.

Mr. Bench

Does not this show that the benefits paid out under the National Insurance Scheme are inadequate to maintain subsistence level, and that this is the reason why we have to supplement them? Would it not be right and proper, therefore, to raise the benefits?

Mrs. Thatcher

There will always be circumstances for which National Assistance caters and for which National Insurance benefits do not. In Scotland, about 44 per cent. of the wholly un employed are receiving National Assistance benefits.

4. Mr. Bence

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many retirement pensioners in Scotland receive National Assistance.

Mrs. Thatcher

At 17th December. 1963, 88,043 retirement pensioners in Scotland were receiving weekly grants from the National Assistance Board. Some of the grants provided for a household with more than one pensioner.

Mr. Bence

Here again, is it not time that we took out of National Assistance all retirement pensioners? Is it not disgraceful that under the National Insurance Scheme we cannot provide retirement pensions which eliminate the need for people having to apply for National Assistance? Surely National Assistance was a temporary measure for the period after the war; yet 17 years later we still have to continue this system of providing National Assistance for people when they retire.

Mrs. Thatcher

As the hon. Member will be aware, people at all income levels now receive National Insurance benefits. He may have seen a notable example this weekend. In Scotland, 20.3 per cent, of retired pensioners receive National Assistance compared with 22.8 per cent. in England.

Miss Herbison

Surely the hon. Lady must be aware, when she gives figures of 44 per cent. for the unemployed and over 20 per cent. for pensioners who are in receipt of National Assistance—National Assistance which this Government consider to be subsistence level—that the benefits paid for unemployment, sickness and retirement pensions are below subsistence level and that it is disgraceful that people who have contributed all their lives should be in this position?

Mrs. Thatcher

National Assistance, as the hon. Lady knows, attempts to cater for individual needs. It does so very well indeed, and I should not like to say anything which would detract from its value.

8. Mr. Gourlay

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many persons in receipt of unemployment benefit were also in receipt of National Assistance from his Kirkcaldy office at the latest convenient date, and at the corresponding dates in 1961 and 1962, respectively.

Mrs. Thatcher

At 17th December, 1963, 434 persons with unemployment benefit were receiving weekly grants authorised by the Kirkcaldy office of the National Assistance Board. The figures for the corresponding dates in 1961 and 1962 were 200 and 552, respectively.

Mr. Gourlay

Is the Joint Parliamentary Secretary aware that these figures demonstrate the failure of the Government to arrest unemployment in Scotland? When will she ask her right hon. Friend to show a less complacent attitude and some signs of compassion by giving an immediate increase in unemployment benefit to those who are suffering because of the failure of this Government?

Mrs. Thatcher

I doubt whether there would be a great deal of wisdom in giving selective increases in unemployment benefit over the other needs of other National Insurance beneficiaries. The absolute number is down from 1962, and also the percentage of people is down.

Mr. Gourlay

While it is true that there was a slight decline in the numbers for 1963, is there any reason why, if the Minister proposes to increase unemployment benefit, all the other benefits should not at the same time be increased?

Mrs. Thatcher

There is a slight matter of £ s. d.

22. Mr. Manuel

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what criteria are taken into account by the National Assistance Board when deciding to apply the wage stop to an allowance.

Mrs. Thatcher

The National Assistance (Determination of Need) Regulations, 1948, require the Board to restrict the allowance payable to an unemployed man so that he does not, unless there are special circumstances, receive more than the amount of his net weekly earnings if he were employed full time in his normal occupation, for which he is registered at the local employment exchange.

Mr. Manuel

Is the hon. Lady not aware that this is a heartless rule? Is she also aware that it creates an anomaly among lower wage earners in comparison with higher wage earners owing to the application of the wage stop? Is she further aware that in Scotland the inequality is more pronounced because we have a greater number of lower wage earners than there are in many other parts of the country? Would she ask her right hon. Friend to look at this matter with a view to reviewing the procedure?

Mrs. Thatcher

We are constantly looking at this rather intractable problem. We do not think it would be right in principle to pay a man more when he was unemployed than he could get when working. Equally the National Assistance Board officers are constantly on the look-out for cases of special hardship, when they then make special lump sum payments. If the hon. Member has any individual cases in mind and will let us know, we will consider them, but so far I have had only one case referred to me.

Mr. Lawson

Is the hon. Lady aware that there seem to be some discrepancies in the National Assistance Board's judgment about a man's earning capacity and the judgment made by the local Ministry of Labour of a man's earning capacity, which seem to work out to the disadvantage of the man concerned? Will the hon. Lady look into the matter to see that there is fair play here?

Mrs. Thatcher

I am well aware that in the case which the hon. Gentleman referred to me there was a difference of, I believe, 10s. If any such case is brought to our notice we shall, of course, look into it straight away.

Mr. Manuel

Is the hon. Lady not aware that there is something wrong when the poorly-paid workers are treated poorly by the Government?

Mrs. Thatcher

This has still to do with the main principle that we do not think it right to pay a man more when he is unemployed than he could get by going back to work.

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