HC Deb 23 December 1964 vol 704 cc1235-40

The following Question stood upon the Order Paper:

Mr. STRAUSS

To ask the Minister of Transport what action he is taking to bring about the integration of the transport services.

The Minister of Transport (Mr. Tom Fraser)

With permission, I should like to answer Written Question No. 16.

I have been considering the most suitable method of achieving greater coordination in the field of transport. Among other things, I have been studying the way in which the best use could be made of Dr. Beeching's experience as Chairman of the Railways Board.

One possibility would have been for him to produce, with suitable assistance, a report on co-ordination based on such full-time study as he was able to give to the problem before he returned to I.C.I., from which he was originally seconded.

Since it is Dr. Beeching's desire to return to I.C.I. by the middle of next year, I have come to the conclusion that it would not be practicable for him to carry out the sort of study the Government want, in the way in which we think it should be done, during the time which he could devote to it.

I am, therefore, making other arrangements for the execution of the study and I hope to be able to make a statement about them after the Recess. In the meantime, I need hardly say that I have Dr. Beeching's assurance that, whatever form the study takes, I shall have the full benefit of his advice during the months while he remains Chairman of the Railways Board.

Mr. Strauss

My right hon. Friend is taking active steps to bring about the integration of the transport services. Is he aware that everyone will agree that a further survey is very necessary to achieve this? Has he in mind appointing some one or a committee to make a report to him? Has he in mind that that report should not take very long but that he should be able to give a decision within a few months either about the person to be appointed or a committee which is to be set up?

Mr. Fraser

In approaching this matter immediately on taking office, I reached the conclusion that this was not the kind of study I should want to give to a large representative committee to work on. I thought that that would take much too long and probably would not yield results at the end of the day. It was for that reason that I have been giving consideration to whether Dr. Beeching could help me with this study. He will still be able to help me, but not in the way I had originally in mind.

I think that it will probably be necessary for this study to be undertaken by a very small group of people who, I should think, would almost inevitably have to work under my own control, because I do not want to put in hand a study which might take one, two or three years to complete. This is something which I want to have completed during the course of 1965, and, I hope, long before the end of 1965.

Mr. Powell

While I am sure the right hon. Gentleman would agree that it is undesirable that a statement of any importance should be made in answer to a Question for Written Answer, may I say to him that I understand there might have been special reasons in this case which make this exceptionally admissible? When his statement, in due course, is made it will require very careful consideration.

In the meantime, in reference to something that the right hon. Gentleman said earlier this morning, may I draw his attention again to the disclosures and semi-disclosures which he admitted had taken place and ask whether he is taking action to ensure that this does not occur in future?

Mr. Fraser

I am obliged to the right hon. Member for what he said in the first place. I could merely have allowed the Answer to go into HANSARD in reply to my right hon. Friend the Member for Vauxhall (Mr. Strauss), but I thought that hon. Members on both sides of the House would have thought that a rather hole-in-the-corner way of giving the Answer. I therefore chose to do it in this way.

The right hon. Member said that I admitted disclosures or semi-disclosures, but I did not. There has been a great deal of speculation. From what I have said I think that it will be apparent that a great many newspapers have been widely off the mark. I never had in mind that Dr. Beeching would become a great supremo or overlord with executive powers over all forms of nationalised transport in the country, but that is a story which was heavily run in the newspapers.

There has been much speculation because Dr. Beeching attracts a great deal of attention. In the whole of this discussion much more attention has been drawn to a person who might have undertaken the study than to the study itself.

Sir D. Walker-Smith

Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us a little more about what will be the content and scope of his substantive statement when he makes it? Will it define the terms of reference and scope of inquiry of this committee or working party? Will it make clear the degree, if any, of independent judgment which the committee is to bring to bear and also deal with the time-table of the expected action since, if the terms of reference are controversial—as they may be—the time-table would be very important, as the right hon. Gentleman's tenure of office may not be very protracted?

Mr. Fraser

I have every confidence that my tenure of office will be a rather long one. The right hon. and learned Member, in asking me what may be the content of my statement, is inviting me to make the statement now and not later. I should have thought that the House would have wished me to clear up the speculation about the future of Dr. Beeching at the earliest possible moment. I should have thought the House would think it a little precipitate on my part if I were, at the same time, to make up my mind as to the form the study will take in future.

I would rather think about this, and give a comprehensive and informative statement to the House, instead of giving information now about some aspects, which would lead to more speculation between now and then.

Mr. Longbottom

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the very real work of co-ordination which is being undertaken between the Road Haulage Association and the British Railways Board on wayleaves? In drawing up of the committee's membership, will he bear in mind that over the last 12 months considerable efforts and results have been achieved?

Mr. Fraser

Yes, I am aware of the co-ordination which has gone on so far. but co-ordination of transport has to be taken very much farther. That is why I propose to make the study.

Mr. Doughty

Could the right hon. Gentleman tell us today the name of the successor to Dr. Beeching? When he considers the terms of reference of the committee, will he bear in mind that he should avoid placing an obligation on it to subsidise rail by road transport and that the costs should be kept separate? There also remains a duty to see that the railways lose as little money as possible.

Mr. Fraser

I want the railways to lose as little money as possible within reason and having regard to the services which they must provide for the people. The hon. and learned Member asked me to name the successor to Dr. Beeching. I thought I had cleared that up by what I had said. I have not finally decided whether there will be a successor to Dr. Beeching or not. Does the hon. and learned Member mean a successor as Chairman of the Railways Board?

Mr. Doughty

I meant as chairman of the committee. I assume that the person concerned would be chairman of the committee and Dr. Beeching will not now be that chairman.

Mr. Fraser

I am obliged to the hon. and learned Member. I thought that when I got to that point of my reply the hon. and learned Member might be thinking of a successor as Chairman of the Railways Board, rather than who would be the successor who might make the study. I am trying to take the House into my confidence. I have tried to explain that it might be better for me to undertake the study myself with assistance from informed people outside, informed people who are not part of my Department.

I do not want to say that that is exactly how it will be done, because from the people outside whom I may invite to assist me in this work it may very well emerge that they would prefer to form a little steering group over which a prominent person from outside would preside. If so, it would be necessary to give such a steering group terms of reference; but if I were to preside myself it would not be necessary to draw up terms of reference; as I should inform the House of what I proposed to do.

Mr. Patrick Jenkin

Is the Minister aware that the whole subject of integration has been very much covered by the Geddes Committee, which is examining the road haulage licensing system, and, in particular, the question of track costs? Will the right hon. Gentleman ask the Committee to expedite its report? Will he undertake that the report, when presented to him, will be published? Will he further undertake not to make any precipitate decision on this subject until this Committee has reported?

Mr. Fraser

In undertaking this study it will be very necessary to take account of what the Geddes Committee recommends. That Committee covers a very small part of the business of transport co-ordination. The study must begin before we get the report of the Geddes Committee, which, I understand, will be reporting in the spring of next year. I hope to have advice from Lord Geddes in the study which we will undertake. He will expect his findings to be taken into account, and I should have thought that I would discharge my duty the better by having discussions with Lord Geddes as the study proceeds.

Several Hon. Members

rose—

Mr. Speaker

I think that we must remember that if we trespass in terms of time it is upon that very valuable commodity, private Members' time.