§ Q3. Mrs. Castleasked the Prime Minister whether he will approach the Prime Ministers of all governments in the Commonwealth with a view to a collective Commonwealth approach being made to the Government of South Africa to abandon the political trial now taking place of opponents of apartheid, as requested in the resolution passed by the United Nations General Assembly on 11th October, 1963.
§ The Prime MinisterAs the hon. Lady will be aware from the reply given her on 13th April by my hon. Friend the Minister of State at the Foreign Office, the South African Government are fully aware of the strength of public opinion in this country. Other Commonwealth Governments will themselves decide what action they wish to take on the resolution. If they wish us to represent their 1501 point of view to the South African Government no doubt they will ask us to do so.
§ Mrs. CastleIs it not a fact that the Indian Government have just approached Her Majesty's Government and the Government of the United States and urged them to use their influence with the South African Government to stop these trials? Is it not also a fact that the representations so far made to South Africa by Her Majesty's Government have been halfhearted and unconvincing? Would it not greatly strengthen the Commonwealth if the right hon. Gentleman were to give a lead in getting concerted Commonwealth action on this matter, and will he raise it at the Commonwealth Prime Ministers' conference?
§ The Prime MinisterThe hon. Lady has no reason for her assumptions about any representations which we have made to the South African Government. She might remember that judgment has not yet been delivered in this trial and that it would not be appropriate to anticipate it.
§ Mr. LongdenWhile most earnestly hoping that the Republic of South Africa will finally abandon these political trials, may I ask my right hon. Friend whether he knows whether the United Nations have at any time given any indication of wishing to "intervene in matters which are essentially within the jurisdiction of the Republic"—say—"of Ghana"?
§ The Prime MinisterNo, Sir; I have no such knowledge.
Mr. H. WilsonWill the Prime Minister accept that the holding of these trials, whether an internal matter or not, is an affront to the whole world civilisation? He should accept that because he made protests to the South African Government against the fact that these trials are being held, whatever their conclusion, but would not the protests made by the Government, which the right hon. Gentleman says have been made in tough terms—or so he implied—be greatly strengthened if the Government ceased to maintain their present equivocal attitude on the subject of an arms embargo to South Africa?
§ The Prime MinisterIn answering Questions in the House on matters of this kind I have to remember that the lives of men are at stake here, and therefore I have to he very careful that in my arguments I do nothing and say nothing which might make this case more difficult. Answering the last part of the question about arms to South Africa, the right hon. Gentleman has for some time liked to describe our attitude as equivocal. In fact it is perfectly plain: we provide arms for South Africa under the Simonstown Agreement but we do not provide them for use inside South Africa in any cases in which they could be used to further the policy of apartheid. Unless the right hon. Gentleman is prepared to get up and say that he would scrap the Simonstown Agreement, then we stick to our policy.
Mr. H. WilsonIs it not a fact that—[HON. MEMBERS: "Answer."]—is it not a fact, first, that the statement now made by he Prime Minister is totally different from what all his Ministers were saying? [HON. MEMBERS: "Answer."] I am justifying the word "equivoca" and I will deal with the Simonstown Agreement in a moment. Is it not a fact that the right hon. Gentleman's statement is opposite to what his Ministers were saying for many months until last summer, for they said that they would have no control over arms?
§ The Prime Ministerindicated dissent.
Mr. WilsonCertainly they said that. Secondly, when he denies that it is equivocal, will he say whether his policy in his matter conforms to United Nations resolutions and is the same as that which is carried out by the United States, France and Germany? Thirdly, on Simonstown, is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that the whole of the schedule to the Simonstown Agreement in respect of shipments made under that agreement was due to end on 31st December, 1963?
§ The Prime MinisterThe right hon. Gentleman shows every sign of losing his head on this matter. He has made what I do not imagine he means to be a deliberate mis-statement. All the Ministers n the Government have said, and I have said dozens of times to the 1503 right hon. Gentleman across the Floor, that we have an export system of licensing arms to South Africa and that we use that system in order to see to it that the arms which we export to South Africa are not applied to further the policy of apartheid. In their export policies to South Africa, the United States and other countries concerned have no agreement corresponding to the Simonstown Agreement.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. This is difficult. I forget when last it was that the House resolved to help Mr. Speaker in the business of supplementary questions. I do not want to get in the way, but we do not get enough Questions answered.
Mr. H. WilsonOn a point of order. Would it not save the time of the House and help Mr. Speaker better if the Prime Minister answered the Question which I just put to him?
§ Mr. SpeakerI appreciate the anxiety to help me, but I have difficulty in making it into a point of order. Mr. Swingler.
§ Mr. SwinglerQuestion No. 4.
§ The Prime MinisterI cannot answer for—
§ The Prime MinisterI hope that the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition will collaborate. I am trying to answer a Question by one of his colleagues, but the right hon. Gentleman will not let me.
§ Sir H. ButcherOn a point or order. May I ask whether it is in order for the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition persistently to mutter from a seated position?
§ Mr. SpeakerWhat I should like is for the House to enable me to get some Questions answered. I do not know whether the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Mr. Swingler) could hear the Prime Minister answering the Question, but I confess that I had some difficulty. The Prime Minister.