Rail Closures

HC Deb 08 April 1964 vol 692 cc999-1003

37. Mr. Ross

asked the Minister of Transport what arrangements he has made for taking advice on the economic and social effects of railway closure proposals in Scotland submitted to him.

Mr. Marples

As well as considering evidence submitted to me direct by local authorities and other organisations, I consult my right hon. Friends the Secretaries of State for Scotland and for Industry, Trade and Regional Development. The former has at his disposal the assistance of the inter-departmental Scottish Development Group, as well as advice from the Highland Transport Board and the Highland Panel and views conveyed to him by the Scottish Council and other interested bodies.

Mr. Ross

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in some of the areas affected by the closures, many of which have been mentioned at Question Time today, special studies are being conducted into the relationship between future planning and transport needs? Can he assure us that he will await the findings of these special inquiries before reaching any decision? Will he also give a pledge that the evidence and advice he is given, particularly by Government Departments, which may per- suade him one way or the other on these closures will be published, or at least a summary of these matters?

Mr. Marples

The question of reports made by T.U.C.C.s, which are concerned solely with hardship, is entirely up to the T.U.C.C.s. They must decide what they issue to the Press at the time. In reply to the hon. Member's other point, the Secretary of State for Scotland will have the assistance of the Scottish Development Group, and if that Group's studies are not far enough advanced in certain cases I will certainly wait for them. However, in other cases I give consent for the closures but arrange for the track to be kept open for the present and without prejudice to the future. I arranged for that to be done in the cases of Kilmarnock to Ardrossan and Berwick to St. Boswells.

Mr. Ross

Surely in Kilmarnock and elsewhere we find areas in which we are to have new towns. Is this one in particular not a growth area, and is it not rather ridiculous, apart from the T.U.C.C.'s considerations of personal hardship, that the right hon. Gentleman should get advice from the Secretary of State that this particular closure should go ahead?

Mr. Marples

If the new town is developed in such a way that it needs railway services or facilities, then those facilities can be restarted. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Yes, and that is why we put the conditions in about keeping the track there.

39. Mr. W. Hamilton

asked the Minister of Transport what arrangements he has made to have railway closures in Scotland deferred until the economic and social consequences of such closures have been investigated; and which areas are covered by such arrangements.

40. Mr. Lawson

asked the Minister of Transport what are the circumstances, in taking decisions on railway closures in Scotland, in which more time is needed for a decision, and closures accordingly are to be deferred.

Mr. Marples

No special arrangements are needed. Opposed passenger closures cannot take place without my consent. I will not decide any case until I have all the evidence I need. I cannot say in advance on which proposals I may need to make further enquiries, what points these enquiries will cover, or how long they will take.

Mr. Hamilton

Does the Minister recall that some weeks ago the Secretary of State for Scotland, in a speech to Conservative women in Scotland, said that it would be a year, sometimes two or more, before some of these railways would be closed because they were not going to be closed until the regional development plans were formed? Does the right hon. Gentleman agree with that view?

Mr. Marples

I cannot remember the speech of my right hon. Friend in such detail as the hon. Gentleman puts forward, but I can assure him that in these cases one cannot say how long it will take because each case is different. Each case has different characteristics and must be considered on its own merits.

Mr. Lawson

Is not a large part of the difficulty in dealing with this very complicated problem not just that of personal hardship but that of how the closures will affect a whole area? Is he aware that some inquiries appear to be conducted in private, perhaps almost in secrecy, and does he realise that the purpose of these inquiries would be served very much better if the maximum publicity were given to the consultations as they take place and subsequent to the findings being published?

Mr. Marples

There is no question of secrecy here. Some of the proposals that are made to my Ministry about the expansion of new towns, industry and so on are made by such bodies as the Scottish Development Group, the Highland Transport Board and so on. They work as a team, certainly not in secrecy, and send their reports to the Ministry.

Sir John MacLeod

Is it not unrealistic to announce closures of these lines while these inquiries are going on? My right hon. Friend must know how long some of these inquiries will take.

Mr. Marples

As I have said, each case is different. In certain cases it is clear that lines are not being used and are not likely to be used. In other cases it is possible that they are likely to be used and, for that reason, we state that the track should be kept. There are so many permutations and combinations involved in this. It is not merely a question of whether a line should be kept open or whether it should be closed. There are many shades of grey and this is not always a question of black and white.

Mr. Strauss

Does the right hon. Gentleman think that closures on a wider scale and at a more rapid pace would have taken place had this not been General Election year?

Mr. Marples

I do not think so.

43. Mr. Gough

asked the Minister of Transport if he is satisfied with the manner in which public inquiries dealing with the proposed closure of passenger train services are carried out; and if he will introduce legislation to ensure that, at transport users' consultative committee hearings on proposed rail closures, adequate time is allowed for the hearing of objections, and that no hearing is closed until every objector has had an opportunity of putting his case on hardship.

Mr. Marples

I do not think that any change in the law is required. The purpose of a public hearing is to assist the Transport Users Consultative Committees' assessment of hardship by enabling objectors to amplify the written objections with additional and relevant information I have no evidence that this object is not being achieved under the present procedure.

Mr. Gough

Would my right hon. Friend not agree that the recent proceedings at Steyning fell very far short of what he is saying? Does he not agree that a public poster appeared all over the countryside saying that the hearing would be for two days, whereas it took only one day? Is he further aware that there is grave dissatisfaction in the whole area that the grievances have not been properly aired?

Mr. Marples

Notices appeared saying that the herring would be for two days, but they appeared locally without the Committee's authority. They were put out by unauthorised persons and, naturally, the Committee cannot be blamed for that. A great deal of evidence was put to the Committee in writing. It heard lengthy submissions on behalf of local authorities and 30 individuals also spoke at the meeting. I see no evidence that objectors who had new points to make were not heard.

Mr. Manuel

Does the Minister not recognise that Dr. Beeching's proposals for rail closures and passenger train withdrawals were put forward many months before the plans for central development in Scotland were decided upon? Does this not mean that there should be a reassessment of these proposals, which were made when the Scottish economy was completely stagnant and when there were no indications of plans for central Scotland?

Mr. Marples

That is exactly what I have said is happening now. When any of these bodies tell me that there will be an expansion of trade or when my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Industry and Trade says that a certain area will be developed, all these things are taken into account.

Mr. Gough

May I bring my right hon. Friend back from Scotland to Sussex? Has he seen this copy of the poster which I have in my hand and which I will hand to him? Will he please look into the matter again and realise that the only way that there can be satisfaction and fair play is for him to call another meeting at Steyning to hear all the objectors, hundreds of whom, including myself, have not been heard?

Mr. Marples

I will certainly be interested to see a copy of the poster or advertisement in the local paper but, as I said, it was put there by some unauthorised persons for mischievous purposes.

Mr. Gough

In view of the very unsatisfactory nature of my right hon. Friend's reply I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible opportunity.