HC Deb 28 November 1963 vol 685 cc471-5
Q4. Mr. Idwal Jones

ones asked the Prime Minister if he will give an undertaking that adequate alternative forms of transport will be made available in Wales when railway lines are closed down, similar to the undertaking he has given for the Highlands of Scotland.

The Prime Minister

In his statement to the House on 27th March, my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport recognised that there would be special problems in Wales as well as in Scotland—and indeed in some parts of England. He said that he would see that, where necessary, adequate alternative means of transport were available before a railway passenger closure took place. I am glad to confirm that assurance.

Mr. Jones

While thanking the Prime Minister for that reply, may I ask if he is aware that if these railway lines in Wales are closed, large rural areas and towns in a very extensive area will be completely cut off from the main railway lines of England? Is he aware that it is necessary not only to have short-distance alternative means of transport, but long-distance alternative means of transport in rural Wales?

The Prime Minister

I have a great deal of sympathy with the hon. Member because I come from a country very like his. If he has in mind any particular area in which he is interested and will bring the problem to the notice of my right hon. Friend, my right hon. Friend will of course consider it.

Mr. H. Wilson

We welcome the Answer given by the right hon. Gentleman. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] It is a big improvement on the statement that one-third of the lines would be closed whatever the position. Would the right hon. Gentleman, however, in order to make the position absolutely clear beyond all doubt, recalling the very clear and specific terms of the pledge he gave in Scotland on a number of occasions, tell us that the pledge in those words applies equally to Wales and to England?

The Prime Minister

The right hon. Gentleman knows that no statement has ever been made by the Minister of Transport or any other Minister that railways would be closed whatever the circumstances. Not at all; that is not the position and he knows it. He also knows that the procedure which applies in Scotland as elsewhere is that if there is objection the Transport Users' Consultative Committee considers the objection and gives advice to the Minister of Transport, who considers whether in all the circumstances a railway should be kept open or should be closed. I say therefore that my right hon. Friend will take exactly the same procedure as that taken by the Secretary of State for Scotland.

Mr. Wilson

I am sorry to press the Prime Minister, but he can be sure that we have studied the Act. We fought it Clause by Clause before it became an Act. We are not concerned with what the Minister's statement did not say. We are concerned with what the Prime Minister did say. We welcomed what he said in Scotland. I am asking for his clear assurance—the question can be very simply answered—that the form of words which he used in Scotland applies in England and Wales. Does it or does it not?

The Prime Minister

If the right hon. Gentleman and his friends had listened they would have heard me say just now, I hope, that the Minister of Transport applies exactly the same procedure as the Secretary of State for Scotland.

Hon. Members

Oh.

Mr. Manuel

That is not what the Prime Minister said in Scotland.

The Prime Minister

I am rather beginning to wonder whether hon. Members want to hear the answer. I was going on to add that the practice of the Minister of Transport and of the Secretary of State for Scotland is exactly the same, and therefore my answer to the right hon. Gentleman's question is "Yes".

Mr. C. Hughes

Will the Prime Minister give an assurance that where alternative bus services are provided they will not be discontinued in due course on the grounds that they, too, are uneconomic?

The Prime Minister

I think that does not arise out of the Question, which concerns railway lines which may be closed and alternative transport which may be provided, which in the normal case would be bus services.

Mr. Callaghan

The Prime Minister said that where railway lines are closed down alternative means of transport "must be found somehow". Does he not see, in relation to the supplementary question of my hon. Friend the Member for Anglesey (Mr. C. Hughes), that as rural bus services are also uneconomic the question for him to answer is how these alternative services are to be "found somehow"? Can he tell us what is his intention? Is this more than an empty promise? Will he provide subsidies for the bus companies or give county councils the power to run bus services—or how will he do it?.

The Prime Minister

In certain circumstances the Minister of Transport can require the bus services to run services in a particular area. That is the answer.

Mr. H. Wilson

rose—

Hon. Members

No.

Mr. Wilson

I rise only to put in the customary question form our desire to congratulate the Prime Minister and to express our warm appreciation of the fact that this afternoon in categorical terms he has given the pledge for which we asked in the two-day transport debate and which we could not then get.