HC Deb 23 May 1963 vol 678 cc773-5

Question proposed, That the Clause stand part of the Bill.

Mr. Mitchison

This is rather a different matter. This Clause continues until the end of August, 1965, certain borrowing powers of the electricity and gas authorities, subject to limitations mentioned in subsection (1)(a) and the provisions afterwards provide for Orders fixing maximum amounts beyond the end of August, 1964, and for affirmative procedure to apply to those Orders.

The terms of the Clause are perfectly clear. The reason for it and the relation of it to the present position are not so clear. I notice that in his Budget statement the Chancellor simply said: The powers to make Exchequer advances to the gas and electricity industries expire at the end of August, and I shall be moving a special procedure Resolution"— and that was done— to enable these powers to be renewed in the Finance Bill."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 3rd April, 1963; Vol. 675, c. 485.] That is really all we know about it. It contains no explanation about the amount, and while I do not want in any way to discourage any eloquence on the Government Front Bench, we on this side of the Committee would like shortly to hear how this figure has been arrived at and how it compares with the present figures. We do not wish to discuss it now, but in the light of what is said to consider whether we should not revert to it at a later stage of the Bill—it might be a question of Recommittal or on Report, I am not sure which—but I think that a statement from the Government would give us material to consider. On the Second Reading of the Bill all that was said about these provisions was simply a reference back to the Budget statement.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

The hon. and learned Member, no doubt by a slip of the tongue, said that the Clause extended the borrowing powers of the gas and electricity industries. That is not so, because, as the hon. and learned Member will recall, those borrowing powers are laid down in separate legislation generally related to the nationalised industry concerned.

The Clause gives to the Exchequer power to lend up to the limit of the extent that those industries are by that other legislation empowered to borrow. The Clause is an extension in the case of those two industries of the powers contained originally in Section 42 of the 1956 Finance Act as extended by Section 78 of the 1960 Act.

The earlier Clauses cover lending to the other nationalised industries, but as opportunity has offered with the presentation of borrowing powers legislation on behalf of those industries there has in recent years been incorporated also the related lending power of the Exchequer. We have, therefore, narrowed down the provisions necessary in a Finance Bill to the gas and electricity industries. The Clause proposes to extend those lending powers for two years.

As the hon. and learned Gentleman has noted, there is, first, a power to increase the total lending, including that already lent, to the figure of £3,280 million by August, 1964, and to extend it further by Statutory Instrument, subject to the affirmative Resolution procedure, in the following year. The figure for the period to August, 1964, is based on the fact that the existing lending is likely to be about £2,834 million by the time the powers expire in August this year. The difference between that figure and the £3,280 million is a reasonable estimate of the requirements over that period of the gas and electricity industries, all within the borrowing powers already authorised by Parliament.

For the further year, a Statutory Instrument will be necessary. The Statutory Instrument procedure is probably the better, but, as the hon. and learned Member will appreciate, there would not be time between the Royal Assent to the Bill and August of this year, however optimistic we may be about the progress of the Bill, to lay a Statutory Instrument.

The purpose is, therefore, as regards these two industries, simply to enable the Exchequer to lend in respect of sums that those industries are already empowered by Parliament to borrow, and the Clause is substantially in the form, related now to these two industries, of the 1960 Act.

Mr. Mitchison

We would like to consider what the right hon. Gentleman has said. It was, as he said, a slip of the tongue if I put it round the wrong way. Borrowing by the industries and lending by the Treasury are two sides of the same thing. I understand the right hon. Gentleman to assure the Committee that the sum of £3,280 million, which is the limit which appears in the Clause, is a limit already authorised from the borrowing end by other legislation.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

indicated assent.

Mr. Mitchison

Let us for the moment leave it at that.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 67 ordered to stand part of the Bill.