HC Deb 22 May 1963 vol 678 cc416-20
14. Mr. Small

asked the Minister of Labour the number of mouldmakers employed in the engineering and shipbuilding industries of the Clyde Valley in 1957 and at the latest convenient date.

15. Mr. Millan

asked the Minister of Labour the number of millwrights employed in the engineering and shipbuilding industries of the Clyde Valley in 1957 and at the latest convenient date.

16. Mr. J. Bennett

asked the Minister of Labour the number of engine fitters employed in the engineering and shipbuilding industries of the Clyde Valley in 1957 and at the latest convenient date.

17. Mr. J. Robertson

asked the Minister of Labour the number of fitters employed in the engineering and shipbuilding industries of the Clyde Valley in 1957 and at the latest convenient date.

18. Mr. Lawson

asked the Minister of Labour the number of turners employed in the engineering and shipbuilding industries of the Clyde Valley in 1957 and at the latest convenient date.

19. Mr. Ross

asked the Minister of Labour the number of universal grinders employed in the engineering and shipbuilding industries of the Clyde Valley in 1957 and at the latest convenient date.

20. Mr. Manuel

asked the Minister of Labour the number of patternmakers employed in the engineering and shipbuilding industries of the Clyde Valley in 1957 and at the latest convenient date.

21. Mr. Willis

asked the Minister of Labour the number of millers employed in the engineering and shipbuilding industries of the Clyde Valley in 1957 and at the latest convenient date.

22. Mr. Steele

asked the Minister of Labour the number of moulders employed in the engineering and shipbuilding industries of the Clyde Valley in 1957 and at the latest convenient date.

Mr. Whitelaw

In February, 1957, there were 1,082 fitters and 185 turners employed in shipbuilding and ship-repairing compared with 780 fitters and 100 turners in February, 1963, in the areas covered by the Glasgow, Paisley, Greenock and Dumbarton groups of employment exchanges. Information is not available about other occupations in shipbuilding or ship-repairing or about the numbers employed in different occupations in the engineering industry.

Mr. Small

Does the Parliamentary Secretary recognise that these Questions relate to highly-skilled workers in a craft section of industry and that the decline in their numbers is really staggering? Has he any proposal designed to arrest that decline? Will he make an effort to see that we retain men skilled in these crafts, as retraining does not enable a high earning capacity to be attained.

Mr. Whitelaw

Bringing new industries to an area and retraining skilled labour to man those industries is part of the Government's policy.

Mr. Millan

Cannot the Parliamentary Secretary improve on his statistics a little? It is disturbing that the figures are not available. Is he aware that there is considerable concern about reductions in the traditional skills on the Clyde and corresponding reductions in apprenticeship facilities, and that there exists a need to look urgently at the apprenticeship schemes generally, to improve training schemes and to do all else that is necessary to give young people opportunities on leaving school?

Mr. Whitelaw

I agree with what the hon. Gentleman says. My right hon. Friend has recently arranged for information about the important occupations in a sample of firms in the manufacturing industries only to be collected. These would not he available on a local basis such as Clydeside.

Mr. Bennett

Does the Parliamentary Secretary accept the decline as being inevitable or has he any positive proposal to arrest it?

Mr. Whitelaw

The positive proposal to arrest this decline must be the introduction into the area of new and expanding industries to take the place of the older traditional industries which are bound to decline somewhat.

Mr. Robertson

Will the hon. Gentleman say whether the decline in the number of skilled people employed in the west of Scotland is due to migration to England or because they have found employment in other industries and occupations?

Mr. Whitelaw

I could not give an exact answer to that question without notice. I should imagine, however, that it is due to a variety of reasons.

Mr. Lawson

Does the Minister agree that the loss of or the reduction in the number of skilled workers in this important part of the country is a matter of first importance not only to Scotland but to Britain? Does he consider that perhaps the fact that this country lags behind other countries in the building of ships may be explained in terms of this kind of loss, and will he see that he and his right hon. Friends do more than they have done over the past 12 years to meet this growing difficulty?

Mr. Whitelaw

It would be a mistake for me, in reply to the hon. Gentleman, to generalise and to specify that we are not as competitive in the shipbuilding industry as we would wish to be. At the same time, we have to accept that this is part of a problem which exists throughout the world. I do not think that it is confined to Clydeside or anywhere else. I accept that the loss of skilled people is worrying for any area, and that is why the Government are determined to do so much to get new firms and industries into the area.

Mr. Ross

But surely the Government have not started to bring these new industries to the area this week? Surely the figures which the hon. Gentleman has given show a drop of at least 30 per cent. in respect of those trades about which he has given figures? Are not the Government concerned about this, and the fact that those areas and these industries, the engineering and shipbuilding industries, are what the prosperity of the Clyde was built upon? Have not the Government a coherent policy to arrest the decline, or support the prosperity of that area with new industry to employ these skilled trades?

Mr. Whitelaw

I should have thought that the Government have a far more coherent policy for dealing with this problem than has been suggested by anyone else.

Mr. Willis

Will the hon. Gentleman tell us how the Government's retraining policy is determined when they do not appear to have information about the types of industry in which jobs are declining? Surely it is important to obtain this information if the Government are to tackle the problem?

Mr. Whitelaw

It would be fair to say that we have a considerable amount of information, certainly sufficient upon which to base sound training proposals.

Mr. P. Williams

Does the earlier answer by my hon. Friend mean that the Government accept as inevitable a decline in the shipbuilding industry, whether on the Clyde or elsewhere? If this is so, surely it is worth while trying to find the reason. Is it—as has been suggested by the placing within the last 24 hours of an order with a Japanese yard—because of cost, or it is because of the absence of credit facilities? The House ought to have an answer on these matters.

Mr. Whitelaw

I do not think that anything in my answer could be read any wider than merely stating what is already happening in this industry. The subjects to which my hon. Friend referred are wider, and they are matters for my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport.

Mr. Callaghan

May I advert to the reply of the Parliamentary Secretary that it was not for him to give reasons why the shipbuilding industry was less competitive than it should be? Does the hon. Gentleman know that in fact the shipbuilding industry on the Clyde is as competitive as anywhere in the world and that the modernisation which has taken place in some of the shipyards there will stand comparison with that in any other yard, and does not he think that he should modify his statement?

Mr. Whitelaw

What I was saying referred to the question of my hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland. South (Mr. P. Williams). I certainly agree with the hon. Member about modernisation and I am grateful to him for giving me the opportunity of saying so. The fact is, however, that orders are being placed in other parts of the world, and that is something we have to face.