§ 30. Mr. Smallasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many persons in Glasgow are refused National Assistance supplementation, or are being paid less supplementation than the scale rate, because of the application of regulation 3 of the National Assistance (Determination of Need) Regulations 1948.
§ 31. Mr. Steeleasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many persons in Dunbartonshire are refused National Assistance supplementation or are being paid less supplementation than the scale rate, because of the application of regulation 3 of the National Asistance (Determination of Need) Regulations 1948.
§ 32. Mr. Willisasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many persons in Edinburgh are refused National Assistance supplementation, or are being paid less supplementation than the scale rate, because of the application of regulation 3 of the National Assistance (Determination of Need) Regulations 1948.
§ 33. Mr. Lawsonasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how 23 many persons in the area covered by the Motherwell office of the National Assist. ance Board are refused National Assistance supplementation, or are being paid less supplementation than the scale rate, because of the application of regulation 3 of the National Assistance (Determination of Need) Regulations 1948.
§ 34. Mr. T. Fraserasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many persons in the area covered by the Hamilton office of the National Assistance Board are refused National Assistance supplementation, or are being paid less supplementation than the scale rate, because of the application of regulation 3 of the National Assistance (Determination of Need) Regulations 1948.
§ The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Pensions and National Insurance (Mrs. Margaret Thatcher)I assume that the hon. Members have in mind restrictions on National Assistance supplements to sickness or unemployment benefit, generally referred to as the wage-stop. Information relating to supplementation of sickness benefit is obtained on an annual sample basis only for the country as a whole, and separate figures for particular localities are not available. Information about supplements to unemployment benefit is also not available as asked for but a special inquiry early in March showed that the numbers of such supplements restricted at that date were:
| In Glasgow | 768 |
| In the area served by the Dunbarton and Clydebank area offices | 177 |
| In Edinburgh | 194 |
| In Motherwell | 68 |
| In Hamilton | 132 |
§ Mr. SmallDoes the hon. Lady recognise that these figures, according to information available to me, are rising fast and that they indicate that this provision falls heavily on people who, under the National Assistance (Determination of Need) Regulations, are not being equated with the normal standards which operate today? Will the hon. Lady now review the regulations with a view to scaling them up?
§ Mrs. ThatcherThe figures are not rising fast; they are falling with the 24 fall in unemployment. This regulation has been inherent in the National Assistance provisions since their inception, and I see no reason to change it.
§ Mr. LawsonIs the hon. Lady satisfied that this regulation is being applied in each area with as much generosity, fairness and uniformity as in other areas? Is she aware that there are good reasons for believing that there is quite a wide margin of discrimination in some areas compared with others? Will the hon. Lady look at this?
§ Mrs. ThatcherWe have tried to secure that the regulations are applied uniformly. The acid test is what the man concerned could get if he went back to work in that area.
§ Mr. BenceIs the hon. Lady aware that many workers are made redundant in a factory register at the employment exchange for a particular function—and I have an electricity wireman in my constituency in mind—but when they go for National Assistance they are classified as general labourers? As the scale is lower, they seem to be reclassified by the Board to their disadvantage. Will the hon. Lady look at that?
§ Mrs. ThatcherThe Board has no power to do the classification. It has to consult the Ministry of Labour to see what kind of work is available at that time. I am aware that circumstances such as those to which the hon. Member has referred arise.
§ Miss HerbisonIs the hon. Lady aware that, judging even from the figures which she has given, there are hundreds of people in Scotland, particularly, where wage rates are lower, who are now being asked to live and bring up their families on an amount of money which is much smaller than the Government think is necessary for a subsistence level? Since that has obtained particularly since the last two increases in the National Assistance rates, would the hon. Lady not agree that the time has come for the Minister to have this matter examined or to give it to his Advisory Committee in order to mitigate as much as possible the great hardship which the children of these workers are suffering under the week-stop rule?
§ Mrs. ThatcherThe regulation is designed to ensure that people receive 25 no more money when unemployed than they would receive if they went back to work in such jobs as wore available that week. I believe that this is a reasonable state of affairs and that the National Assistance Board's officers do their best to alleviate hardship wherever it occurs.
§ 35. Mr. Rossasked the Minister of Pensions and National insurance what proportion in Scotland of married men, with a dependent wife and five or more children, are receiving either no National Assistance supplementation, or less than the scale rate, because of the application of the National Assistance (Determination of Need) Regulations, 1948.
§ Mrs. ThatcherI regret that no information relating to restrictions on supplements to either sickness or unemployment benefit is available in relation to families of a particular size.
§ Mr. RossWill the hon. Lady ask the Minister to refer this whole question to the Advisory Committee? There is no doubt that hardship is being caused when people are paid less than the scale. She can hardly deny it if she has not got the figures. Will the hon. Lady do the first thing necessary and try to obtain some information about it, supplemented by the information she already has for the month of March? Does she realise the inconsistency in giving us the figures for March and pretending that they are falling because unemployment is falling, when, in fact, unemployment was rising in the month of March?
§ Mrs. ThatcherIf the hon. Gentleman was drawing conclusions from my facial expression during the first part of his supplementary question. I thought that he referred to the National Insurance Advisory Committee, which, of course, is not concerned with National Assistance matters.