HC Deb 02 May 1963 vol 676 cc1283-5
7. Mr. G. Thomas

asked the Minister of Education if he will state the names of the two local authority representatives on the Burnham Committee with whom he discussed the disputed Burnham proposals in confidence, and the reasons which led him to consult these two persons rather than the leaders of the local authorities and the teacher's panels respectively.

Sir E. Boyle

Between 24th January, when the Burnham Committee sent me details of its provisional agreement, and 8th March when it ratified this agree- ment, I discussed my proposed rejection of the Committee's proposals with eight representatives of the local authority associations represented on the Burnham Committee. On 1st March I saw a deputation of members of the authorities and the teachers' panels of the Committee. I regard all these discussions as having been confidential.

Mr. Thomas

Is it not a fact that the Minister saw two distinguished members of the party opposite, not in their representative capacity, who were serving on the Burnham Committee. Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that this is another indication of the unhappy way in which he has undermined the confidence which teachers and local authorities have a right to place in him?

Sir E. Boyle

I saw eight people. They were not all political supporters of this side of the House, but I do not want to make anything of that point because I do not regard this as a party political issue. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Certainly not. This is a perfectly proper use of my power as Minister under Section 89 of the Act. As deadlock seemed imminent it seemed wholly reasonable for me and any responsible party in the education service to discuss informally and confidentially possible ways of avoiding deadlock. I still think that that was a perfectly reasonable and sensible thing to do.

Mr. Thomas

The right hon. Gentleman is bound to know the two gentlemen to whom I referred. Did he not see them on their own, quite apart from the others?

Sir E. Boyle

I can assure the hon. Member that I did not see anybody in the guise of political supporters of the present Government. [HON. MEMBERS: "Answer."] Anyone I saw—and this is an important point—I saw entirely because of their position in the local authority world.

Mr. Willey

But did the right hon. Gentleman happen to see two people of the same party as his own and did he see those people separately?

Sir E. Boyle

Quite genuinely I assure the House that I do not know how quite a number of people I saw vote at elections. I did not see any of these people because I regarded them as political supporters of the present Government, I saw them because of the part which I hoped they could play in helping to resolve the present deadlock.

Mr. Thomas

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment.

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