HC Deb 20 March 1963 vol 674 cc373-7
27. Mr. Shinwell

asked the Lord Privy Seal what is the policy of Her Majesty's Government towards the new American proposal in the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation for a multilateral nuclear force.

Mr. Shinwell

May I point out that the word "multilateral" in the Question should be "multinational". It is my mistake.

Mr. Heath

That, of course, makes it a fundamentally different Question. May I therefore provide an Answer? The new American proposal is not a proposal for a multinational force. The proposal for a multinational force, or the paragraph 6 force of the Nassau communiqué, was taken on the initiative of our own Prime Minister.

Mr. Shinwell

In this connection, will the right hon. Gentleman exercise the greatest caution in accepting the proposal for surface Polaris missiles on ships and also the proposal for a mixed force? Before any definite conclusion is reached about this matter, will the Government consult the House?

Mr. Heath

Perhaps I can now assure the right hon. Gentleman that his Question as printed on the Order Paper was really what he meant to ask. The question of a surface force to which he referred is only in connection with the multilateral force. We have had the advantage of discussions with Mr. Merchant about this and we are now considering all the implications of these proposals.

Mr. Rankin

On a point of order. I did not catch what the Minister said. Is Question No. 32 being taken with this Question?

Mr. Speaker

Not as far as I know.

Mr. Shinwell

Is the Lord Privy Seal aware that the Americans have made so many proposals that ii is rather likely that some of us are confused about them?

Mr. Heath

I always do my best to clarify issues for the right hon. Gentleman.

Mr. Healey

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the Government have yet made any estimate of the cost to Britain of making a contribution towards the multilateral force and how that compares with the contribution towards the multinational force, to which Her Majesty's Government are committed, and the cost of the TSR2 deterrent force and the cost of continuing the V-bomber force to which the Government are also already committed?

Mr. Heath

Now that we have had discussions with Mr. Merchant and we have the figure of cost which is in the minds of the American Administration, we are considering the way we can best help. The figure bears no relation to the figure quoted by the hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) yesterday.

Mr. Biggs-Davison

Will the Government concentrate British resources on a British deterrent rather than indulge in these preposterous polyglot Polaris proposals?

Mr. Heath

I cannot possibly accept that rather cleverly worded supplementary question by my hon. Friend.

39. Mr. Zilliacus

asked the Lord Privy Seal to what extent the multinational agreement on the use of the nuclear weapons assigned to North Atlantic Treaty Organisation forces imposes international control on the use by the United States of America of its own nuclear forces.

Mr. Heath

The arrangements for control over the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation nuclear force remain to be worked out.

Mr. Zilliacus

Is there any prospect of that system of control operating in regard to American nuclear forces outside N.A.T.O.? Is there any prospect, for instance, of N.A.T.O. approval being required before the United States threatens to resort to nuclear force as she did in the case of Cuba?

Mr. Heath

This is a question of N.A.T.O. nuclear forces.

Mr. Zilliacus

Not the American forces?

Mr. Healey

Could the hon. Gentleman clear up the matter in relation to a multinational force? I understand that so far the Supreme Allied Commander Europe has never been given any control over strategic nuclear weapons. Is it intended that under Her Majesty's Government's proposals for a supranational N.A.T.O. force as put before the N.A.T.O. Council this morning, S.A.C.E.U.R. should be given direct control of a strategic nuclear strike force?

Mr. Heath

I have already explained that these questions of the control of the force have got to be worked out by the Alliance generally, and I am not prepared to say what our proposals are going to be in the context of the general discussions in the Alliance.

41. Mr. Healey

asked the Lord Privy Seal if he will publish a White Paper on the proposals of Her Majesty's Government for a multinational North Atlantic Treaty Organisation deterrent force.

Mr. Heath

No, Sir. A White Paper would not be appropriate at this stage.

Mr. Healey

Since reports of the Foreign Secretary's speech are already appearing on the tape, and since his speech was listened to by a very large number of functionaries of a very large number of European countries, is it not desirable that the House of Commons and the British people should have some information about Her Majesty's Government's proposals on this extremely important matter? So far, there seems to have been total equivocation and confusion on the Government's part.

Mr. Heath

There is no equivocation on the Government's part. It is a question of how much information should be made available publicly on the course of confidential discussions between allies. But I will certainly consider the earliest moment at which it is possible to give further information to the House.

Mr. P. Williams

Since there was practically nothing in the Defence White Paper, and since it is obvious that discussions—reasonably—are being held, will my right hon. Friend give us a specific undertaking that when eventually we develop a defence policy we shall have the opportunity of debating it?

Mr. Heath

This matter was fully debated during the defence debate. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] There was discussion on this point during the debate on the Nassau communiqué. However, if it is the desire of the House to debate the matter, my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House will consider it.

Mr. Shinwell

Is the right hon. Gentleman saying that the Government propose to take a definite decision on this very important matter without consulting the House? Will he say what is in the Government's mind about this?

Mr. Heath

No, I did not say that. I do not think the right hon. Gentleman wishes to misinterpret me. There are discussions going on at the moment inside the Alliance, in which all the countries concerned can take part, in order to try to work out the arrangements which should be made first for the multinational force and then for the multilateral force. I have assured hon. Members that, if they desire a debate, the Leader of the House will give full consideration to that matter in the normal way and that I will consult my noble Friend and my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence to see how soon we can give to the House further information of a more detailed kind about the arrangements for this force.

Mr. G. Brown

Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that that is what hon. Members on both sides are asking for? It appears that this morning the Foreign Secretary has put before our allies some ideas and proposals in the name of the British Government. The House would like to know what proposals are being made. Will the right hon. Gentleman issue a White Paper giving us the information which the Foreign Secretary has this morning given to the representatives of all the other members of the Alliance?

Mr. Heath

I have explained to the House—and the House has always accepted it on previous occasions—that when confidential discussions are going on between allies they cannot be carried on in public but that as soon as it is possible to make further information available we will do so. That is the undertaking which I have given.

Mr. Brown

How confidential can he a statement made before 14 other members of the Alliance and reports of which are already on the tape and will be widely printed tonight or tomorrow morning? It is now beyond the stage of a confidential exchange of ideas and is at the point of formal presentation of views. Therefore, surely the House should know what views we are putting forward.

Mr. Heath

I have already given the House the undertaking that I will consider with my noble Friend how much information can be made available following his speech to N.A.T.O.