Clause 21.—(FIRST AID: GENERAL PROVISIONS.) (Hansard, 6 March 1963)

§ Mr. Hare
I beg to move, in page 13, line 11, after "In", to insert "the case of".
Mr. Deputy-Speaker, there are consequential Amendments which perhaps we might discuss with this Amendment:
In line 25 after first "in", insert "the case of".
In line 36, after "in", insert "the case of".
552 In page 14, line 20, leave out "provided at" and insert: maintained at or in conjunction with".

Mr. Deputy-Speaker
Yes, if that is agreed.

§ Mr. Hare
These Amendments provide what I believe is a slight but sensible relaxation to the absolute requirement of subsection (1) of Clause 20, which lays down that a first-aid box or cupboard has to be kept in all premises to which the Bill applies. We do not think it is always necessary that the first-aid box should be inside the premises so long as it is readily accessible. In railway premises, for instance, it will often be desirable that the first-aid box should be kept not in the premises where the men report for work but much closer to the place where they are actually working.
The wording of the Amendment in page 14, line 20, which is to subsection (7), is designed to achieve the same effect. A first-aid room does not have to be "at" the premises. If it is maintained "in conjunction with" premises the enforcing authority may give exemption certificates for which subsection (7) provides. I think the House would agree that the real test is whether immediate treatment can be given if necessary.
I think that these Amendments will make for flexibility and will certainly not lead to any lowering of the protection afforded by the Clause, and I therefore commend them to the House.

§ Mr. Hare
I beg to move, in page 13, line 31, to leave out from "exceeding" to "are" in line 33 and to insert "the relevant number".
Mr. Deputy-Speaker, there is a consequential Amendment, in page 13, line 42, at end insert: In this subsection "relevant number", in relation to any premises, means one hundred and fifty or such less number as may by regulations be prescribed by the Minister in relation either to premises generally or to premises of a class within which the first-mentioned premises fall. which perhaps, by leave of the House, we might discuss at the same time.

Mr. Deputy-Speaker
Yes, if the House wishes so.

§ Mr. Hare
Under subsection (4), first-aid boxes have to be provided where more than 150 persons are employed or where the number exceeds such lesser number as may be prescribed by regulations. It is possible that we may wish to prescribe a lesser number for a class of premises but not for all. The purpose is to give us this added flexibility. In other words, we shall be able to reduce the number of 150 to such lesser figure as we think reasonable for any class of premises. I hope that will commend itself to the House.

§ Mr. Hare
I beg to move, in page 13, line 33, after "work", to insert "at any one time".
We are dealing with a Clause on the provision of first aid facilities, and in deciding on the scale of the facilities to be provided it is sensible to cater for the number of people on the premises at any one time. In the case of some railway premises, for instance, most of the work people based there may spend their day travelling up and down the line. It is obviously unnecessary in such a case to require that the scale of first-aid facilities should be related to the number of people who, although based there, are hardly ever present. The words "at any one time" are already in subsection (1) of the Clause.

§ Mr. Carol Johnson (Lewisham, South)
I beg to move, in page 13, to leave out lines 35 to 42 and to insert the person in charge of each first-aid box or cupboard required to be provided in accordance with the provisions of this section must be trained in first-aid treatment and one such person must always be available during working hours in respect of not less than three of such first-aid boxes or cupboards required by this section to be provided in the said premises". The point raised here may seem at first sight to be a minor one but it directs attention to what appears to be a slight defect in the first-aid provisions of the Bill. It has attracted the attention, amongst others, of the British Medical Association, and I hope, therefore, that the Minister will give sympathetic consideration to what I have to say.
554 Clause 21 provides that where there is one first-aid box or cupboard in circumstances where fewer than 150 persons are employed on the premises. the responsible person in charge of it must be trained in first-aid treatment and always be available during working hours, but that if two or three first-aid boxes or cupboards have to be provided where there is a larger number of employees, only one of the persons in charge of them needs to be so trained.
As it seems that there need be no more than one first-aid box for each group of 150 persons employed in any of the premises affected, I should have thought it was necessary and certainly desirable that there should be one person trained in first-aid in respect of each 150 persons employed. That is not unreasonable.
The Amendment is designed to achieve this, and I emphasise that, if the Minister accepts it, it will, at the same time, require only one such trained person to be available in respect of each three or less first-aid boxes or cupboards during working hours. This would cover circumstances where three shifts might be working on the premises during each period of 24 hours, I hope the right hon. Gentleman will feel that this is a reasonable argument and that, even if he cannot accept the Amendment as it stands, he will deal with it in another place.

§ Mr. Hare
I am grateful to the hon. Member for the way he has put forward the Amendment, but I find it difficult to accept a change. When the outline of the Bill was circulated for comment we received a great number of representations to the effect that there was difficulty in getting volunteers to take training courses. It is not a question of employers being unwilling to release staff for training during working hours, but simply the difficulty of finding volunteers to take the courses. The hon. Member will probably realise that.
As I read the second part of the Amendment, it would seem to require that one of these trained first-aid persons should be available during working hours only when at least 450 persons were employed. This is less than is provided for by the Bill. I do not think that that is 555 the result which the hon. Member intended his Amendment to have. He said that he was not wedded to the wording of the Amendment.
I would add that there would be added complications and difficulties for employers if the figure of 150 were lowered by regulation, because more trained persons would be required, and I have already referred to the difficulty of finding them. Having heard my explanation, therefore, I hope that the hon. Member will be willing to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

§ Mr. Johnson
In view of the Minister's reply, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

§ Mr. Hare
I beg to move, in page 14, line 32, at the end to insert: or which are comprised in an institution which provides medical or surgical treatment for inpatients or an institution which, not being such as one as aforesaid, is carried on by a person registered under Part VI of the Public Health Act 1936, the Nursing Homes Registration (Scotland) Act 1938 or Part XI of the Public Health London Act 1936". The purpose of the Amendment is to exempt offices and shops in hospitals which treat in-patients, or in nursing homes in charge of a doctor or qualified nurse, from the necessity to provide first-aid facilities under the Clause. In hospitals and such nursing homes there will not only be facilities in excess of those required by the Clause, but also doctors and qualified nurses. They will be readily 556 available, if need be, to atttend to any accident or illness suffered by the staff of the office or shop. For these reasons, and reasons of common sense, we think it right to exclude these places from the provisions of the Clause.