§ 8. Mr. Willisasked the Minister of Aviation what proportion of the estimated expenditure under the Air Estimates 1963–64 Vote 7A will be spent in Scotland.
§ 9. Mr. Rossasked the Minister of Aviation what proportion of estimated expenditure under the 1963–64 Air Vote 7 will be spent in Scotland.
§ 10. Mr. Millanasked the Minister of Aviation what proportion of estimated expenditure under the 1963–64 Air Vote 7G will be spent in Scotland.
§ 11. Mr. Hoyasked the Minister of Aviation what proportion of the estimated expenditure in the 1963–64 Air Vote 7E will be spent in Scotland.
§ 12. Mr. Steeleasked the Minister of Aviation what proportion of the estimated expenditure in the 1963–64 Air Vote 7F will be spent in Scotland.
§ 13. Mr. Smallasked the Minister of Aviation what proportion of estimated expenditure in the 1963–64 Air Vote 7D will be spent in Scotland.
§ 14. Mr. Hannanasked the Minister of Aviation what proportion of estimated expenditure under the Air Estimates 1963–64 Vote 7C will be spent in Scotland.
§ 15. Mr. Lawsonasked the Minister of Aviation what proportion of estimated expenditure under the Air Estimates 1963–64. Vote 7B, will be spent in Scotland.
§ Mr. J. AmeryI will, with permission, answer this Question and Numbers 9 to 15 together.
§ Mr. CroninOn a point of order. These Questions refer to entirely different matters, varying from airframes to laundry services. Surely it is an abuse of the concession we give to Ministers not to take all these Questions separately, and it shows an obvious indifference to the problems of Scotland.
§ Mr. SpeakerNeither the Questions nor the Answer are out of order.
§ Mr. AmeryThe greater part of the expenditure under Vote 7 of the Air Estimates passes from the Air Ministry to the Ministry of Aviation in reimbursement of the cost of contracts placed by my Department. I am therefore replying with the agreement of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Air. The form in which the records of the Departments are kept does not in general show how much of any store was bought in Scotland. The estimates, moreover, relate to future expenditure and I am not in a position to say in advance where particular contracts will be placed.
§ Mr. WillisCould the right hon. Gentleman say whether any conscious effort is made by his Department to ensure that these vast Government purchases are used to stimulate employment in areas where unemployment is very high? If they are not, what is the right hon. Gentleman going to do about it?
§ Mr. AmeryThe Government are, of course, guided by two considerations. The first is to get the best value for the public money spent. The second is to have regard, as the hon. Member suggested, to the overall condition of industry in different parts of the country.
§ Mr. MillanIs it not rather significant that the Minister is not able to give this information? Does it not demonstrate that not enough attention is paid to this aspect of ordering equipment and materials? Would the right hon. Gentleman please look at this again? Will he see whether more orders cannot be placed in Scotland and in other development districts?
§ Mr. AmeryI think that a great loss of public money would result if my Department were to announce where it was going to place contracts before it had negotiated them.
§ Mr. SmallDoes the right hon. Gentleman not realise that under Vote 7D, dealing with electronics, an opportunity could be afforded to Scottish industry to diversify to that degree with some assistance from the Government?
§ Mr. AmeryCertainly we have in mind the point which the hon. Member has made, though I dare say that it is already under consideration in the Departments.
§ Mr. LawsonIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that, if his Department cannot give this information, most other spending Departments which have been asked for the information have been able to do so? Will he look at this point? Will the right hon. Gentleman also look at the fact that undoubtedly industry tends to group itself round Government spending Departments and that the fact that these Departments are located in the South has led to a concentration of industry? Will the right hon. Gentleman see whether something can be done about this and not allow things to continue as at present?
§ Mr. AmeryWe have to balance many factors, including the overall interest of the taxpayer and the different problems of the localities. I am sorry that I cannot give hon. Members the detailed information which they seek. On the other hand, I am sure that they would not wish to duplicate expenditure or effort in Departments to obtain information which may be important at one moment but not later on.
§ Mr. EmeryWill my right hon. Friend bear in mind that there are other areas than Scotland which have an interest in Vote C? Will he bear in mind that though hon. Members may not put down Questions about their own areas they are just as interested that these Votes should not be spent only in Scotland?
§ Mr. AmeryI will bear the point in mind. I do not want to provoke another Border war. The last time there was one it ended up in my constituency.
§ Mr. BenceI do not want to be unfair to the right hon. Gentleman, but did I hear him say that through the Estimates he could not tell us where these orders were placed? Are we to understand from the right hon. Gentleman that the House of Commons votes over £1,900 million a year and nobody can tell us where we spend the money?
§ Mr. AmeryI do not think that the hon. Member has understood what I said. I said that the Estimates relate to orders which will be placed in the future and it is not always either possible or judicious to say in advance of contractual negotiations being completed with what firms they will be placed.
§ Mr. LawsonIf I put down a Question, will the right hon. Gentleman undertake to find out in what proportion expenditure in the past has been placed in Scotland? Will he undertake to give an Answer?
§ Mr. AmeryIf the hon. Member had heard clearly what I said in my original Answer he would have understood that the records of the two Departments concerned do not provide this information.
§ Mr. S. SilvermanIs not the Minister's refusal of this information in conflict with declared Government policy? Are we not proposing to spend a vast amount of money in what is, after all, a 9 nationalised industry? Have the Government no responsibility for the apportioning of expenditure according to the economic needs of the country, and are not the people entitled to know?
§ Mr. AmeryThe hon. Member is quite wrong in speaking of a refusal. I am not concealing information. All I say is that the records do not show where expenditure was made in the past in a form which would enable me to answer the Questions succinctly, nor, inevitably, can the Estimates show this.
Mr. LeeWhy is it not possible to investigate this? Surely the Department knows where orders were placed. All things being equal, especially in Scotland where there is an engineering background, it would be a good thing to ensure that where there is a development area of that type it receives favourable consideration instead of being put up against an area where there is full employment.
§ Mr. AmeryI thought that I made it clear in my reply to the first supplementary question that we have to balance the interests of taxpayers as a whole against the interests of a particular area which is in trouble at the time.
§ Mr. WillisIn view of the very unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment.