HC Deb 26 June 1963 vol 679 cc1309-12
5. Sir Richard Glyn

asked the Minister of Defence what plans he has for the reorganisation of the British Army of the Rhine; and if he will make a statement.

11. Mr. Paget

asked the Minister of Defence if he will make a statement as to the redeployment of the British Army of the Rhine.

Mr. Thorneycroft

I have decided to reorganise the British Army of the Rhine from seven brigade groups to three divisions each of two brigade groups. One infantry brigade group less its armoured regiment will be withdrawn. It will be replaced by additional artillery regiments and various ancillary units, such as engineer and transport units. The net effect will be to achieve a more balanced and effective fighting force. This reorganisation does not involve a reduction in manpower. This organisational plan, of which the N.A.T.O. military authorities have been informed, will, on the basis of current planning, be implemented by the end of 1964.

Sir Richard Glyn

I thank my right hon. Friend for his reply. Would he agree that this change will be generally welcome as increasing the efficiency of B.A.O.R. and enabling military planning to proceed on a more realistic basis? Can he tell the House that this will be achieved without reducing the number of infantry battalions in the British Army either by amalgamation or otherwise?

Mr. Thorneycroft

Yes, I think it will have those advantages. It does not involve the disappearance of battalions from the British Army.

Mr. Wigg

Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether this means that he is reconstituting the divisional structure? Can he give the House an undertaking that, from now on, units of the Rhine Army will be kept up to their establishments and will be effectively equipped so that we may move away from the completely unrealistic policy of the last two years?

Mr. Thorneycroft

The arrangements here are for a three-divisional structure. There will be three divisions each of two brigades, which is the total of six brigades instead of seven. As to equipment, I would say that it is a very well equipped Army now. New equipment is coming in all the time. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will take another opportunity to go and see for himself.

Mr. Paget

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I am more concerned about where our Army is than whether there are three divisions or seven brigade groups? Is the present position that they are about 48 hours from their deployment position, whereas the Russians are about 12 hours from those deployment positions? Is this somewhat unsatisfactory deployment position to be maintained?

Mr. Thorneycroft

Having been there recently, I am satisfied that the arrangements for deployment on the forward strategy are adequate and proper. I am not going into the hours—I do not see why any of us should—but they are adequate and proper for the tactical and strategic requirements of the Western defences in that area.

Mr. Shinwell

Was not it decided several years ago, when the Army of the Rhine was being reorganised by the present Government, to depart from the divisional formation and accept the position of brigade groups? Is not this a departure from the existing position? Will the right hon. Gentleman explain why he speaks about the force being balanced now when all along the Government have claimed that it was?

Mr. Thorneycroft

I do not understand the second part of the right hon. Gentleman's supplementary question. Of course it is a change from what was the case before. It is now six brigades instead of seven. It is not a departure from our obligation in this matter, which is that we should work to 55,000, and that is what we intend to do.

Mr. Morris

The Minister said that N.A.T.O. has been informed of this decision. Does that mean that N.A.T.O. and SACEUR approve? Secondly, we have been told that there will be no difference in the number of men in B.A.O.R. How many men are there? If there are fewer than 55,000 is it proposed to bring the figure up to 55,000? How long has the present brigade structure been in existence and why change it now?

Mr. Thorneycroft

We changed it in order to improve the operational efficiency of the organisation. We are concerned that we should stick to our treaty obligation to bring these forces up to 55,000. It is not necessary to ask for SACEUR approval to this organisation but it is courteous and proper to inform SACEUR.

Mr. Healey

Is not it the case that this reorganisation proves the point which has been made again and again from this side of the House that the pretence that Her Majesty's Government were maintaining seven brigades in Germany in a state of fighting readiness has been damaging to the alliance and damaging to the efficiency of our own forces? Why has it taken so long for the Government to recognise the importance of this matter?

Mr. Thorneycroft

In the things which have been said to me in defence debates since I have been Minister I do not recall much stress being laid on that point by the hon. Gentleman. Nevertheless, if he agrees that six brigades is a better organisation than seven, I am happy to see this measure of agreement between the two sides of the House.

Mr. Speaker

Mr. Cronin, Question No. 6.

Mr. Wigg

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I have been invited by the right hon. Gentleman to visit the Rhine Army. Pending my departure, may I ask whether he will answer the question which I asked him about establishment?

Mr. Speaker

I recognise that this is a wide topic and that the enjoyment of the hon. Gentleman's trip will be largely dependent on whether he gets the answer or no. But in the interests of other hon. Members we must get on.