HC Deb 25 June 1963 vol 679 cc1131-4
Q5. Mr. Healey

asked the Prime Minister whether he will discuss the American proposal for a mixed-manned North Atlantic Treaty Organisation nuclear force with the President of the United States of America when they meet at Birch Grove.

Mr. R. A. Butler

I have been asked to reply.

My right hon. Friend's discussions with the President of the United States will, of course, be confidential, but he naturally expects that they will cover a wide range of problems of mutual concern to both Governments. The proposals for creating a North Atlantic Treaty Organisation mixed-manned force are in general terms only, and if it is decided to establish it there will be many details to be worked out by the participating nations.

Mr. Healey

If the Prime Minister discusses this matter with the President on Saturday, would the First Secretary ask his right hon. Friend to draw the attention of President Kennedy to the fact that no British voice of consequence, either inside or outside the House, has been raised in favour of this proposal? Would it not be quite improper for Her Majesty's Government to commit the country in favour of such a proposal when they are known to have lost the respect and confidence of the country?

Mr. Butler

My right hon. Friend will take into account all expressions of opinion before he enters into this discussion.

Mr. Warbey

Will the First Secretary say whether the Government agree with the American defence intellectuals who are quoted today in The Times as regarding this proposal as providing "more bang for a buck" or "more rubble per rouble" than any alternative one?

Mr. Butler

The hon. Member's observation will be noted.

Mr. Lipton

Can the right hon Gentleman say whether the Prime Minister has taken adequate steps to be personally informed as to the suitability of the security arrangements for the protection of our distinguished visitor?

Mr. Butler

That raises a quite different question which, if necessary, should be put on the Order Paper.

Q7. Mr. P. Noel-Baker

asked the Prime Minister what proposals have been made as to who will appoint the naval officers who are to command the surface vessels of the proposed multilateral North Atlantic Treaty Organisation nuclear force, as to the proportion of the mixed crews which will be provided by each participating nation, and as to whether all the members of these mixed crews will be trained to arm and launch the Polaris missiles.

Mr. R. A. Butler

I have been asked to reply.

The proposals for creating a North Atlantic Treaty Organisation mixed-manned force are in general terms only, and if it is decided to establish it there will be many details to be worked out by the participating nations.

Mr. Noel-Baker

Does the First Secretary realise that until the House knows the answers to the three questions contained in my Question it is impossible for hon. Members to judge how far a mixed-manned force would help to spread nuclear weapons to other nations, which it is the declared policy of Britain and the United States to prevent?

Mr. Butler

It is precisely in order to work out these details, which are very important aspects of this problem, that the discussions are to take place.

Mr. Noel-Baker

Will the right hon. Gentleman give us a pledge that no commitment will be made for mixed-manned forces until the answers have been given to the House?

Mr. Butler

I have already said that the matter must be first decided and then the House must be consulted.

Mr. Noel-Baker

Might I press the First Secretary a little further? What does he mean by the word "decided"? Does he mean that we will be committed to the mixed-manned force before the House is given a chance to debate this vital point?

Mr. Butler

I mean that until there is a plan worked out and until the British decision has been taken it is impossible to give the House the decision we have made. I was carrying out what my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said on 20th June; that a report must then be made to the House and the matter can then be debated.

Mr. H. Wilson

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware—has he not been told—that before the Whitsun Recess the Opposition Chief Whip and I both made representations to the Government to the effect that in our view no decision should be taken on this matter until the House had had an opportunity of debating it? Is he aware that next week it is hoped that there will be a debate on foreign affairs and disarmament, two issues in which this question is a central one? Will he now give a clear assurance—one which the Opposition Chief Whip and I thought we already had—that the Government will not take a decision until we have had next week's debate so that the views expressed, I hope by hon. Members on both sides, can be taken fully into account before the Government take their decision?

Mr. Butler

I will certainly convey that supplementary question to my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister. Mean-while, I repeat what my right hon. Friend said on 20th June: These matters are under consideration and have to be discussed with us and our allies. If and when any decision is reached it will be stated to the House and there will be an opportunity for debate."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 20th June 1963; Vol. 679, c. 644.]

Mr. Wade

What is meant by the word "decision"? Does the right hon. Gentleman mean a decision by the Government as to the policy they are to pursue, or agreement with the other countries concerned?

Mr. Butler

The British Government must first have these discussions before they can make up their mind what proposal they will put to the House.

Mr. H. Wilson

We have not had a straight answer from the right hon. Gentleman on this question—can we please have one? Can we have from him the assurance, which we thought we had, that the Government will not take a decision and then announce it to the House; that they will not take a decision on this matter, at any rate, until we have had the foreign affairs debate that we understand is likely to take place next week? Can we be told that no commitment will be entered into this week-end, or anything in any way involving a decision of the Government, until the Government have listened to the views expressed in this House in next week's debate?

Mr. Butler

I will undertake to convey that view to my right hon. Friend.