§ 15. Mr. Dalyellasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many computers have been bought for use in Government Departments since 1954; how many have come from foreign sources; and whether it is the policy of the Treasury to buy computers in the cheapest market.
§ Mr. BarberSince 1st January, 1954, 71 computers have been bought for use in Government Departments. Five of these have come from foreign sources. Computers for Government Departments, other than those for the Post Office, are bought by Her Majesty's Stationery Office. It is the practice to seek competitive tenders and to apply the usual commercial criteria of cost, performance and delivery.
§ Mr. DalyellIs the Financial Secretary certain that the Stationery Office, which has rather different functions, is the right medium to buy computers?
§ Mr. BarberThere is at our disposal in the Government a considerable amount of technical advice in the Stationery Office, and also in the Post Office there is a group of technical advisers who assist us in these matters, but so far as I know there has been no complaint about this particular aspect. If the hon. Member has any point in mind and will let me know, I will look into it.
§ 16. Mr. Dalyellasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer to what extent Treasury purchasing policy for computers is correlated with development policy for computers; and whether he will make a statement on the recent reorganisation of 1117 the Treasury's technical group considering computer applications.
§ Mr. BarberThe development of computers for civil use is essentially a matter for the industry. It is Treasury policy to buy machines that have reached the stage of development which ensures that their performance will be satisfactory.
The answer to the second half of the Question is that no such reorganisation has taken place.
§ Mr. DalyellHas not the leading article in the Electronics Weekly raised a question mark about the recent reorganisation of this particular department of the Treasury?
§ Mr. BarberIt is just conceivable that the article in that respect, and perhaps in some others, was not accurate.
§ Dr. BrayIs the Minister aware that in private industry large organisations comparable with the Civil Service train a very large proportion of their senior staff in computer programming and the use of computers; yet it is considered beneath the dignity of the administrative grade of the Civil Service to know anything about this at all? Will he look into whether the Civil Service is taking a modern point of view of this matter?
§ Mr. BarberI do not know how much the hon. Member knows about the way in which we proceed in these matters. Does he realise that there is a technical support unit of 18 professional engineers specialising in computers which is paid for by the Treasury and which works under its administrative control? I do not know whether he has that point in mind.
§ Dr. BrayIf the hon. Member recognises the difference between the programmer and the engineer, he must know that in shaping policy on taxation and in shaping policy on any other Treasury matter it is extremely useful to know the type of thinking which is available and which is not being used.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. I am not sure that we all know the difference between speeches and questions.
§ Mr. BarberI assure the hon. Member that the Government and those who advise us have as much experience of programming for computers as any indus- 1118 try in this country—indeed, I think more experience.