§
Motion made, and Question proposed.
That the Finance Bill, as amended, may be considered immediately after the recommittal of the Bill and report thereof, notwithstanding the practice of this House as to the interval between the stages of such a Bill.—[Mr. Maudling.]
§ 4.3 p.m.
§ Mr. James Callaghan (Cardiff, South-East)It is unusual to speak on a Motion of this sort, but I do so briefly because I shall have some further words to say when we consider the Motion for recommittal of the Bill.
The number, size and extent of the Amendments and new Clauses which have been tabled on this occasion are really much greater than it is reasonable to expect the House to consider and there is a very strong case for saying that there should be an interval between the recommittal and further stages of the Bill.
If the Chancellor of the Exchequer cares to look at the Notice Paper he will see that we have been handed at relatively short notice 24 pages of Amendments out of the Report stage of 38, and it is treating the House with less than consideration to expect hon. Members on this side, who do not have the facilities of the Chancellor of the Exchequer for the preparation and examination of Amendments and new Clauses, to rush through these proposals and to try to give some sensible consideration to them.
I am told—I will not say on what authority—that a number of the proposed new Clauses are a rewrite in simpler form of original Clauses. This may well be true, but the Chancellor of the Exchequer and those who assist him should have some consideration for the rest of the House. As I say, we do not have the right hon. Gentleman's resources, and when we have to read through pages of the size of this Notice Paper to try to find out the difference between what is contained in the new Clauses as redrafted and the original Clauses it is asking the House—and I speak as a Member of the House and not as a Member of the Committee—to try to do too much in too short a time.
Some of us have had to work very long and very quickly to do this job. We do not mind doing it when it is necessary, but it is not necessary now. 1148 Most of the new Clauses and Amendments relate to the Schedule A tax. The promise to get rid of Schedule A was announced by the Chancellor of the Exchequer fifteen months ago. It was repeated by the new Chancellor of the Exchequer this April, and here we are faced with further Amendments on Schedule A which, I am told, are a tidying-up process. This is a slipshod way of working.
I know that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has had other preoccupations recently. He served in the R.A.F. I think that the motto then was something like, "Through difficulties I reach for higher things". Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman has been trying to live up to his old motto. However that may be, the fact remains that the House is faced with 96 new Clauses and Amendments put down at comparatively short notice on a subject which is extremely well known to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, namely, Schedule A. The House has been treated with less than the consideration to which it is entitled.
I go on record as saying that I hope that the House will seek to deny the Chancellor of the Exchequer the facility which he needs to consider the Bill immediately after recommittal. In other words, I suggest that we should follow our usual practice of insisting on an interval between the two stages so that we may have one more opportunity to look at the Amendments.
The last two Amendments were put on the Notice Paper this morning I do not know whether they are drafting Amendments or not, because I have not had a chance to look at them. I gather that they deal with fairly small points, but how are hon. Members, who have many other things to do, to know whether that is so unless they are given the opportunity of considering them? I register the strongest protest about the lack of consideration with which the House has been treated on this occasion.
§ 4.7 p.m.
§ The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Reginald Maudling)I am sorry that the hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) should talk of a lack of consideration. I have done my best, during the passage of the Bill, to consider the convenience of the House of Commons and of the Committee. I 1149 think that that would be generally agreed.
I explained at an earlier stage that the elimination of Schedule A, in particular, and a vast block of tax legislation which has been in being for many decades and generations was bound to give rise to complicated problems and that I should be lacking in consideration to the Committee and the House if I did not take the greatest care to ensure that all the points raised in the course of discussion were properly dealt with on Report.
The reason why we have so many Amendments is that I am endeavouring to meet many good points which have been made and in many cases the points could not be met until the Bill was published. The hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East will find that a great proportion of the Amendments involve drafting points and that practically all the others are designed to meet points for the benefit of the taxpayer which have been put forward since the Bill was published.
With regard to precedent, I do not think the hon. Member is right in saying that it is abnormal to take the recommittal and Report stages the same day. I should have thought, from recollection, that it was our practice to take them the same day. The number of Amendments this year is by no means unprecedented. There are 99 Amendments tabled this year. There were 127 in 1960 and 61 in 1947, and, without counting the number of words, I think that the hon. Member will find that the total amount of paper presented—the total lineage, as it were—was probably as great if not greater. There are, therefore, precedents for this.
As for the notice, I did my best and issued instructions that the drafting of the Amendments should go ahead as quickly as possible to ensure that as many Amendments as possible were put down at an early stage. No less than two-thirds were printed in the Notices of Amendments issued by 14th June.
I agree that there are many Amendments which, I accept, involve careful examination by the Committee. They are drafting Amendments or, by and large, concessions to meet the convenience of the taxpayer. I do not, and will 1150 not, accept that this is being inconsiderate to the House.
§ 4.10 p.m.
§ Mr. G. R. Mitchison (Kettering)The right hon. Gentleman's explanation will not wash when one looks at the facts. The facts are that some new Schedules, in particular, three long new Schedules, have been introduced rather at the last moment, and they are Schedules which were not discussed in Committee. Certainly, there was no careful or elaborate discussion. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer chooses to separate the points which he has raised by Amendments into those which arose out of discussion in Committee and others which arose from untidiness or omissions in drafting, he will find that the great majority are of the latter and not of the former kind.
I wish to point out some of the consequences of this kind of behaviour. It is not only extremely inconvenient to hon. Members of the House, and particularly of the Opposition, who have to consider the matter, but it involves a difficulty for other bodies and people. To some degree, all of these Amendments affect persons outside the House. If they are introduced at the last moment in this way, those persons have no opportunity of raising points that they desire to raise and we in the House have little or no opportunity of consulting them properly. One Amendment, for example, results from representations made from outside the House and, no doubt, there are a good many similar Amendments if one knew all the facts. That kind of consultation cannot take place on Amendments which are introduced at the last moment.
The Chancellor says, and no doubt, broadly, he is right, that a great deal of the Amendments are merely to tidy up loose ends, correct mistakes and omissions, and so on. Without going into whether that is a sufficient excuse, it leaves it for the right hon. Gentleman and those who advise and support him to judge whether these changes are material. Governments, even Chancellors of the Exchequer and even draftsmen, inside or outside Parliament, are not infallible and a change which ought to have been introduced may well have escaped the attention, and is bound to escape the attention, of those who are 1151 directly responsible for bringing in the Amendments.
It is not right to deprive the Opposition of seeing whether, by inadvertence—I would not attribute anything more than that to it—a change has been made which has an effect considerably greater than the Chancellor expected. The result of this kind of behaviour, the introduction of volumes of Amendments at the last moment, whether it has happened before or not, deprives the House of a proper opportunity of considering legislation which is not only exceedingly complicated, but will affect, in this instance, a very large number of people.
I trust that whatever happens on this occasion the Government will get out of the habit of doing this kind of thing. If they have done it before, that does not make it any better. I strongly suspect that on this occasion the amount of new matter which has been introduced, and the volume and the importance of it, is greater than has happened in the past.
§ 4.14 p.m.
§ Mr. William Warbey (Ashfield)Right hon. and hon. Members have a duty to those who will operate the Statute and to those whom it will affect. That is why it is essential not only that there should be a proper time for consideration by this House, but also that there
§ should be proper time for consideration outside.
§ The Chancellor of the Exchequer has admitted that most of the Amendments, one of them running to no less than four and a half pages, are in the nature of afterthoughts, which are perfectly legitimate. The complicated changes that the Chancellor proposes to introduce involve a number of considerations which do not admit of solutions being thought out in a matter of hours or even days. Therefore, we have had put upon the Order Paper during the past week, day after day, a succession of afterthoughts.
§ Some afterthoughts were put down on Thursday, we had more on Friday and we had some further afterthoughts put down yesterday, which have appeared only on today's Notice Paper. What about the afterthoughts which occur today or will occur tomorrow? Is there to be no time to consider them? That is the matter to which the Chancellor should address himself. If this tidying-up process is to be done properly, there must be adequate time for all the afterthoughts to be incorporated in the Bill. That is why we must reject what the Chancellor is asking for.
§ Question put: —
§ The House divided: Ayes 219, Noes 186.
1155| Division No. 143.] | AYES | [4.17 p.m. |
| Allason, James | Cordeaux, Lt-Col. J. K. | Godber, Rt. Hon. J. B. |
| Arbuthnot, John | Corfield, F. V. | Goodhart, Philip |
| Ashton, Sir Hubert | Costain, A. P. | Goodhew, Victor |
| Awdry, Daniel (Chippenham) | Coulson, Michael | Gower, Raymond |
| Balniel, Lord | Craddock, Sir Beresford (Spelthorne) | Grant-Ferris, R. |
| Barber, Anthony | Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. Sir Oliver | Green, Alan |
| Barlow, Sir John | Cunningham, Knox | Gresham Cooke, R. |
| Barter, John | Currie, G. B. H. | Grimond, Rt. Hon. J. |
| Batsford, Brian | Dalkeith, Earl of | Gurden, Harold |
| Baxter, Sir Beverley (Southgate) | d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry | Hamilton, Michael (Wellingborough) |
| Bell, Ronald | Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. M. | Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.W.) |
| Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gos & Fhm) | du Cann, Edward | Harrison, Brian (Maldon) |
| Bevins, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Duncan, Sir James | Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye) |
| Biffen, John | Duthie, Sir William | Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere (Macclesf'd) |
| Biggs-Davison, John | Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) | Hastings, Stephen |
| Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel | Emery, Peter | Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel |
| Bishop, F. P. | Emmet, Hon. Mrs. Evelyn | Henderson, John (Cathcart) |
| Black, Sir Cyril | Errington, Sir Eric | Hendry, Forbes |
| Box, Donald | Farey-Jones, F. W. | Hill, J. E. B. (S. Norfolk) |
| Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. John | Farr, John | Hirst, Geoffrey |
| Braine, Bernard | Fell, Anthony | Hobson, Rt. Hon. Sir John |
| Bromley-Davenport,Lt.-Col.SirWalter | Finlay, Graeme | Holland, Philip |
| Brooman-White, R. | Fletcher-Cooke, Charles | Hornby, R. P. |
| Browne, Percy (Torrington) | Forrest, George | Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hon. Dame P. |
| Bullard, Denys | Foster, John | Howard, John (Southampton, Test) |
| Bullus, Wing Commander Eric | Fraser, Ian (Plymouth, Sutton) | Hughes-Young, Michael |
| Carr, Robert (Mitcham) | Freeth, Denzil | Hulbert, Sir Norman |
| Cary Sir Robert | Gammans, Lady | Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye) |
| Channon, H. P. G. | Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, Central) | James, David |
| Cleaver, Leonard | Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife) | Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich) |
| Cooke, Robert | Glover, Sir Douglas | Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle) |
| Cooper-Key, Sir Neill | Glyn, Sir Richard (Dorset, N.) | Johnson, Eric (Blackley) |
| Johnson Smith, Geoffrey | Nabarro, Sir Gerald | Smithers, Peter |
| Kerby, Capt. Henry | Neave, Airey | Spearman, Sir Alexander |
| Kerr, Sir Hamilton | Noble, Rt. Hon. Michael | Stanley, Hon. Richard |
| Kershaw, Anthony | Nugent, Rt. Hon. Sir Richard | Stevens, Geoffrey |
| Kitson, Timothy | Oakshott, Sir Hendrie | Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.) |
| Lancaster, Col. C. G. | Orr, Capt. L. P. S. | Stodart, J. A. |
| Leavey, J. A. | Osborn, John (Hallam) | Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir Malcolm |
| Leburn, Gilmour | Osborne, Sir Cyril (Louth) | Storey, Sir Samuel |
| Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry | Page, Graham (Crosby) | Studholme, Sir Henry |
| Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) | Page, John (Harrow, Wast) | Summers, Sir Spencer |
| Linstead, Sir Hugh | Pannell, Norman (Kirkdale) | Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne) |
| Litchfield, Capt. John | Peel, John | Taylor, Edwin (Bolton, E.) |
| Lloyd, Rt. Hon. Selwyn (Wirral) | Peyton, John | Teeling, sir William |
| Longbottom, Charles | Pickthorn, Sir Kenneth | Temple, John M. |
| Longden, Gilbert | Pike, Miss Mervyn | Thomas, Sir Leslie (Canterbury) |
| Loveys, Walter H. | Pilkington, Sir Richard | Thomas, Peter (Conway) |
| Lubbock, Eric | Pitt, Dame Edith | Thompson, Sir Kenneth (Walton) |
| Lucas, Sir Jocelyn | Pott, Percivall | Thornton-Kemsley, Sir Colin |
| Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh | Powell, Rt. Hon. J. Enoch | Thorpe, Jeremy |
| McAdden, Sir Stephen | Prior, J. M. L. | Tiley, Arthur (Bradford, W.) |
| MacArthur, Ian | Proudfoot, Wilfred | Tilney, John (Wavertree) |
| McLaren, Martin | Pym, Francis | Touche, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon |
| Maclay, Rt. Hon. John | Quennell, Miss J. M. | Turner, Colin |
| Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain (Enfield, W.) | Ramsden, James | Tweedsmuir, Lady |
| MacLeod, Sir J. (Ross and Cromarty) | Rawlinson, Sir Peter | Vane, W. M. F. |
| McMaster, Stanley R. | Redmayne, Rt. Hon. Martin | Vickers, Miss Joan |
| Macpherson,Rt.Hn.Niall(Dumfries) | Rees, Hugh | Vosper, Rt. Hon. Dennis |
| Maginnis, John E. | Renton, Rt. Hon. David | Wakefield, Sir Wavell |
| Maitland, Sir John | Ridley, Hon. Nicholas | Wall, Patrick |
| Markham, Major Sir Frank | Ridsdale, Julian | Ward, Dame Irene |
| Marshall, Sir Douglas | Roberts, Sir Peter (Heeley) | Wells, John (Maidstone) |
| Marten, Neil | Robertson, Sir D. (C'thn's & S'th'ld) | Williams, Dudley (Exeter) |
| Mathew, Robert (Honiton) | Robinson, Rt. Hn. Sir R. (B'pool,S.) | Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.) |
| Matthews, Gordon (Meriden) | Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard | Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater) |
| Maudling, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Royle, Anthony (Richmond, Surrey) | Wise, A. R. |
| Mawby, Ray | Russell, Ronald | Woodhouse, C. M. |
| Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. | Sandys, Rt. Hon. Duncan | Woodnutt, Mark |
| Mills, Stratton | Scott-Hopkins, James | Worsley, Marcus |
| Montgomery, Fergus | Sharples, Richard | Yates, William (The Wrekin) |
| More, Jasper (Ludlow) | Shaw, M. | |
| Morrison, John | Skeet, T. H. H. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles | Smith, Dudley (Br'ntf'd & Chiswick) | Mr. Chichester-Clark and |
| Mr. Frank Pearson. | ||
| NOES | ||
| Ainsley, William | Duffy, A. E. P. | Hunter, A. E. |
| Albu, Austen | Ede, Rt. Hon. C. | Hynd, H. (Accrington) |
| Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) | Edelman, Maurice | Hynd, John (Attercliffe) |
| Allen, Scholefield (Crewe) | Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly) | Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill) |
| Awbery, Stan (Bristol, Central) | Edwards, Robert (Bilston) | Irving, Sydney (Dartford) |
| Bacon, Miss Alice | Evans, Albert | Janner, Sir Barnett |
| Barnett, Guy | Fernyhough, E. | Jay, Rt. Hon. Douglas |
| Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J. | Finch, Harold | Jenkins, Roy (Stechford) |
| Bence, Cyril | Fletcher, Eric | Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S) |
| Bennett, J. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) | Foot, Dingle (Ipswich) | Jones, Rt.Hn. A. Creech (Wakefield) |
| Benson, Sir George | Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale) | Jones, Dan (Burnley) |
| Blackburn, F. | Forman, J. C. | Jones, T. W. (Merioneth) |
| Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G. | Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton) | Kelley, Richard |
| Bowden, Rt. Hn. H. W.(Leics, S.W.) | Galpern, Sir Myer | Key, Rt. Hon. C. W. |
| Bowles, Frank | Ginsburg, David | King, Dr. Horace |
| Boyden, James | Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C. | Lee, Frederick (Newton) |
| Braddock, Mrs. E. M. | Gourlay, Harry | Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock) |
| Bradley, Tom | Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly) | Lewis, Arthur (West Ham, N.) |
| Bray, Dr. Jeremy | Griffiths, W. (Exchange) | Lipton, Marcus |
| Brockway, A. Fenner | Hale, Leslie (Oldham, w.) | Loughlin, Charles |
| Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper) | Hamilton, William (West Fife) | McBride, M. |
| Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.) | Hannan, William | McCann, John |
| Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green) | Harper, Joseph | McInnes, James |
| Callaghan, James | Hart, Mrs. Judith | McKay, John (Wallsend) |
| Carmichael, Neil | Hayman, F. H. | Mackie, John (Enfield, East) |
| Castle, Mrs. Barbara | Healey, Denis | MacMillan, Malcolm (Western Isles) |
| Collick, Percy | Henderson,Rt.Hn.Arthur(RwlyRegis) | MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling) |
| Craddock, George (Bradford, S.) | Herbison, Miss Margaret | Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg) |
| Cronin, John | Hill (Midlothian) | Manuel, Archie |
| Dalyell, Tam | Hilton, A. V. | Mapp, Charles |
| Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.) | Holman, Percy | Mason, Roy |
| Davies, Harold (Leek) | Hooson, H. E. | Mayhew, Christopher |
| Davies, Ifor (Gower) | Houghton, Douglas | Mellish, R. J. |
| Davies, S. O. (Merthyr) | Howell, Charles A. (Perry Barr) | Mendelson, J. J. |
| Deer, George | Howell, Denis (Small Heath) | Millan, Bruce |
| Dempsey, James | Hoy, James H. | Milne, Edward |
| Diamond, John | Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey) | Mitchison, G. R. |
| Dodds, Norman | Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire) | Monslow, Walter |
| Driberg, Tom | Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) | Morris, John |
| Moyle, Arthur | Robertson, John (Paisley) | Thomas, George (Cardiff, W.) |
| Mulley, Frederick | Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.) | Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.) |
| Neal, Harold | Rodgers, W. T. (Stockton) | Thomson, G. M. (Dundee, E.) |
| Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon) | Ross, William | Thornton, Ernest |
| Noel-Baker,Rt.Hn.Philip(Derby,S.) | Royle, Charles (Salford, West) | Tomney, Frank |
| Oliver, G. H. | Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E. | Warbey, William |
| O'Malley, B. K. | Short, Edward | Watkins, Tudor |
| Oram, A. E. | Silverman, Julius (Aston) | Wells, William (Walsall, N.) |
| Owen, Will | Silverman, Sydney (Nelson) | White, Mrs. Elrene |
| Pannell, Charles (Leeds, W.) | Skeffington, Arthur | Whitlock, William |
| Parkin, B. T. | Slater, Mrs. Harriet (Stoke, N.) | Wigg, George |
| Pavitt, Laurence | Slater, Joseph (Sedgefield) | Wilkins, W. A. |
| Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd) | Small, William | Willey, Frederick |
| Peart, Frederick | Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.) | Williams, D. J. (Neath) |
| Prentice, R. E. | Sorensen, R. W. | Williams, W. R. (Openshaw) |
| Probert, Arthur | Spriggs, Leslie | Willis, E. G. (Edinburgh, E.) |
| Pursey, Cmdr. Harry | Steele, Thomas | Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton) |
| Rankin, John | Stewart, Michael (Fulham) | Winterbottom, R. E. |
| Redhead, E. C. | Stones, William | Woof, Robert |
| Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.) | Strachey, Rt. Hon. John | Yates, Victor (Ladywood) |
| Reynolds, G. W. | Stross,Dr.Barnett(Stoke-on-Trent,C.) | Zilliacus, K. |
| Rhodes, H. | Swingler, Stephen | |
| Roberts, Albert (Normanton) | Taverne, D. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon) | Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield) | Mr. G. H. R. Rogers and |
| Mr. Lawson. |
§
Ordered,
That the Finance Bill, as amended, may be considered immediately after the recommittal of the Bill and report thereof, notwithstanding the practice of this House as to the interval between the stages of such a Bill.