HC Deb 19 June 1963 vol 679 cc429-32
8. Mr. Burden

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food why his Department has recently published the booklet, entitled Chemicals for the Gardener, which contains, in a list of chemicals that can be safely used by gardeners and others without damage to wild life, such chemicals as Aldrin, Dieldrin, DDT and BHC, which are known to be persistently poisonous to almost all animals and birds.

10. Mrs. Butler

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what considerations governed the selection of garden chemicals approved as safe in the booklet, Chemicals for the Gardener.

11. Mr. Farr

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will withdraw from circulation the book let, published by his Department, entitled Chemicals for the Gardener, in view of the unsubstantiated information contained therein.

Mr. Soames

This booklet was published to help gardeners choose the right chemical and use it in the correct way. Of the listed chemicals, all the chlorinated hydro-carbons have been considered by the Advisory Committee on Poisonous Substances and the guidance contained in the booklet takes account of the recommendations of the Advisory Committee for their safe use.

The use of chlorinated hydro-carbons as seed dressings has already been severely restricted, but other uses of these chemicals in pesticides have not so far been considered to offer serious hazards to wild life.

In view of the continuing concern expressed by the wild life societies that other uses of these chemicals in agriculture and in gardens may also be responsible for some bird deaths, I have asked the Advisory Committee to undertake a further examination, taking into account all recent evidence, and to make a report to me.

Mr. Burden

I am most grateful to my right hon. Friend for his Answer. Will he undertake to ensure that in future there is a thorough investigation into all of these new insecticides before they are introduced, because there is very great concern in this country about the loss of wild life as a result of the introduction of chemicals which might do damage and even cause death and suffering to animals?

Mr. Soames

I can certainly give my hon. Friend that assurance. His anxiety about the possible effects on wild life through the use of chemicals is widely felt, not least by myself. We have this Advisory Committee which covers all interests and which has a great deal of knowledge. I can give my hon. Friend the assurance that all chemicals will be referred to this body, and we shall ask it to look at any new evidence which there is.

Mrs. Butler

Nevertheless, is it not very serious that this list has been published, and is there not great public concern about the dangers of farm and garden chemicals? Many people are led to think that if they follow this list they will be safe and that there will be no persistent danger to birds and animals. Will not this list as published by the Ministry do more harm than good in this serious situation?

Mr. Soames

I could not accept that. Perhaps I can help the hon. Lady. These chemicals to which she refers—all the chlorinated hydro-carbons and persistent chemicals—have all been examined by the Advisory Committee. As a result of the advice which it gave to me, we had a meeting with all the interests concerned, and the decision which was taken was that these chemicals should not be used as seed dressing during the spring and should be used only in certain circumstances during the autumn. This has been followed and the effect has been a very appreciable diminution in the number of birds found dead and sent to the laboratories for autopsy. This was the only recommendation concerning these particular chemicals. They have been used for things other than seed dressing, and they are still so used.

What I am saying is that, in view of the anxiety expressed by certain societies that even in the use to which chemicals are now being put other than as seed dressing they may still be causing an undue number of deaths among wild life, this anxiety should be communicated to the Advisory Committee, which would report to me.

Mr. Farr

As my right hon. Friend has agreed that there are some grounds for reappraisal of the contents of this booklet, will be confirm that it will be withdrawn from circulation to prevent further damage from being done?

Mr. Soames

Certainly not. I am not confirming anything. What I am saying is that certain societies have said that, in their view, there is evidence that birds have been killed through having had contact with or having eaten chemicals other than those used for seed dressings and that this matter should be examined by the Advisory Committee, which I must look to. All that this published booklet does is to include these chemicals. It does not say that they should be used as seed dressings and it follows the advice given to me by the Advisory Committee. I do not think that there is anything unusual in referring this question back to the Advisory Committee. We must remain constantly vigilant, and no doubt if fresh evidence comes to light it will be noted.

Mr. Darling

Is it not the fact that there is no conclusive evidence that these chemicals are harmless? All that we have up to now is evidence that over a short period they have not caused a great deal of damage. Is it not also the case that in another place the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food announced on Monday that the Advisory Committee had not approved this booklet in the form in which it has appeared? In those circumstances, should not the booklet be withdrawn?

Mr. Soames

No, Sir. What the Parliamentary Secretary said was that the booklet itself was not sent to the Advisory Committee. There was no need to do that. All that the Advisory Committee has done has been to look at the chemicals in the booklet, particularly the hydro-carbons. It has not examined all the chemicals. For instance, some of the older ones which have been in use longer have not yet been through the Advisory Committee, but all the persistent and chlorinated hydrocarbons have been examined.

Mr. Darling

Very unsatisfactory.

12. Mr. Farr

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what consideration is given to the effects on wild life before farm and garden chemicals are approved for use under the Agricultural Chemicals Approval Scheme.

Mr. Soames

Before a product containing a new chemical can be added to the list of approved products under the Agricultural Chemicals Approval Scheme, the Advisory Committee on Poisonous Substances must issue recommendations for its safe use. Under this scheme the Committee requires manufacturers to provide experimental data on the effect of the product on wild life, and must be satisfied with this and other information on wild life hazards before giving clearance.

Mr. Farr

Is my right hon. Friend aware that in the booklet Chemicals for the Gardener, the Agricultural Chemicals Approval Organisation recommends the use of Aldrin, Dieldrin and other poisons which are known to be toxically effective on animals and wild birds?

Mr. Soames

When the Organisation examined the matter, its recommendation was that these chemicals should not be used as seed dressings during the spring or during the autumn, except in certain circumstances. The booklet does not recommend their use as seed dressings.

Mrs. Butler

On a point of order. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the Minister's reply, both to this and to earlier Questions, I beg to give notice that I shall seek an early opportunity of raising the matter on the Adjournment.

Mr. Speaker

The hon. Lady has to confine her notice to this Question; but it will work.

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