HC Deb 19 June 1963 vol 679 cc438-41
19. Mr. Zilliacus

asked the Minister of Defence to what extent since the Ottawa talks it is the policy of Her Majesty's Government to participate in a mixed-manned multilateral fleet commanded by the United States of America, as well as to build submarines armed with Polaris missiles supplied by the United States of America; and what will be the position of the British naval contingent in the mixed-manned fleet when British V-bombers and Polaris submarines are withdrawn from the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation command and used independently, without United States support or approval, in a supreme national emergency.

The Minister of Defence (Mr. Peter Thorneycroft)

I would refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply given by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister yesterday. In view of this, the second half of the Question is hypothetical.

Mr. Zilliacus

Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that yesterday's reply did not cover the question of how the Government propose to reconcile their position as the second mate of a multilateral ship under a German first officer and an American skipper with acting as a nuclear general officer at home in engaging in thermo-nuclear war without the United States?

Mr. Thorneycroft

These are interesting problems, but they are hypothetical, depending on decisions to come.

Mr. Wall

Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that if we take part in this force it will in no way affect completion of our Polaris submarine programme or our independent nuclear deterrent?

Mr. Thorneycroft

This affects a very wide range of defence costing, but it will not affect the independent nuclear deterrent.

Mr. Healey

In view of the fact that the Prime Minister committed the Government to using their best endeavours to develop a multilateral force in which our Polaris submarines would be integrated, if the Government are not now prepared to participate in the mixed-manned force, what other proposal are they making?

Mr. Thorneycroft

I have made it clear that the Government have fully implemented their part of the arrangement envisaged at Nassau. We have undertaken the development of Polaris submarines which will be subscribed to N.A.T.O. All this is being carried out and is well advanced. At no stage have we committed ourselves to subscribe to a mixed-manned surface ship force. This is a separate problem under consideration at the present time, but no decision has been taken.

Mr. Healey

Possibly the right hon. Gentleman has been too busy to read the text of the Bahamas Communiqué. If he has read it, he will be aware that the Government have committed themselves in so many words to using their being endeavours to develop a N.A.T.O. multilateral nuclear force. Does he think that the proposal made at Ottawa fulfils fully the Government's commitments in this respect?

Mr. Thorneycroft

The hon. Gentleman is getting a little muddled about the word "multilateral". As used at Nassau it was in the widest sense, including the subscription of national forces to N.A.T.O. This was fully understood, and it is accepted by everyone, including the Americans, that we have not entered into any commitment.

23. Mr. P. Williams

asked the Minister of Defence whether he will now issue a White Paper on Defence to include the views of the Government on the practicality, or otherwise, of a mixed-manned nuclear force.

Mr. Thorneycroft

No, Sir.

Mr. Williams

In view of the general dissatisfaction, to put it no higher, which existed in the House at the time of the issue of the Defence White Paper earlier this year, would not my right hon. Friend agree that there are certain gaps in the Government's defence policy which now need to be filled, more particularly on the issue of the mixed-manned nuclear force? Would he not agree that this is a matter of such importance that it merits, first, a White Paper, secondly, a debate, and, thirdly, a decision by the House as to the stupidity of this project?

Mr. Thorneycroft

I happen to have thought that the White Paper to which my hon. Friend refers was one of the best White Papers on defence published by either party in the House of Commons. But as no decision has been reached on this matter, it is hardly a subject for a White Paper at the moment.