HC Deb 19 June 1963 vol 679 cc450-1
33. Mr. Willis

asked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty what is the estimated normal annual wastage of manpower in the dockyards at Chatham, Portsmouth, and Devonport, respectively.

Mr. Hay

Estimated annual normal wastage at the three southern dockyards is:

Portsmouth 1,600
Devonport 1,200
Chatham 900
Mr. Willis

Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the fact that he said the decline in manpower required at the dockyards was likely to be more than these figures? Are we to take it that the Admiralty now contemplates cutting the manpower used in these dockyards by more than these figures?

Mr. Hay

No, Sir. The hon. Gentleman should not jump to that conclusion at all.

Miss Vickers

May I ask my hon. Friend whether he has any intention of visiting these various dockyards to ascertain the position for himself, and whether he is going there in the near future?

Mr. Hay

The answer to both parts of the Question is "Yes".

Mr. Willis

The hon. Gentleman will realise that the statement made before the Whitsun Recess was that the decline would be made up of these men plus certain other categories. Therefore, it must be greater than the numbers he has indicated.

Mr. Hay

The words that I used on 29th May were: But the order and magnitude of the problem is such that we expect normal wastage, the adjustment of overtime, a fall in the number of men employed over 65 and restriction on adult entry to go a long way towards its solution."—[Official Report, 29th May, 1963, Vol. 678. c. 1323.]

Mr. Burden

Is my hon. Friend aware that what is normally called wastage is a very serious matter, because what it really means is that when a man retires from a job there is not another job for another man looking for employment What we want to see is this Government maintaining in the Royal Dockyards the present standard of employment and the same number, at least, of people employed there as are employed at the moment.

Mr. Hay

The use of the expression "wastage" can cover a great many things. The wastage that I had in mind in preparing my answer to the Question covered things like death, discharge and voluntary retirement. There is, of course, a lot of room for misunderstanding of what wastage can mean. A promotion can involve no wastage if the job is phased out. On the other hand, a single promotion could involve wastage of up to six or seven people, so I think that one has to be a little careful in using the expression wastage in that sense.