HC Deb 19 June 1963 vol 679 cc441-4
21. Mr. Cronin

asked the Minister of Defence if he will make a statement on the recent visit of Admiral Claude Ricketts, the United States Vice-Chief of Naval Operations, and indicate what decisions have been reached as a result of this visit.

Mr. Thorneycroft

Discussions with Admiral Ricketts covered both the broad military issues and the more detailed and technical questions to which the proposed force gives rise. They were of considerable value to ourselves and, I think, to the United States.

Mr. Cronin

Bearing in mind that up to the time of the visit the Admiralty was very largely opposed to a multilateral force, was the Admiral's visit so persuasive that it produced a change of mind in the Admiralty?

Mr. Thorneycroft

There is no question of anyone being in favour of or opposed to this idea. It is under consideration.

Mr. Emrys Hughes

Has the right hon. Gentleman's attention been directed to certain important criticisms of this scheme made by Field Marshal Montgomery in another place? In view of the Field Marshal's eminence and his knowledge of these matters, and in the light of his criticisms, will not the right hon. Gentleman consider naming the first of these ships H.M.S. "Poppycock"?

Mr. Thorneycroft

I have considered all the arguments which are going on about this force. No decision has been taken. I think that it is a project which deserves serious consideration. I do not think that it is sensible to sneer at ideas put forward by our allies. We may agree or disagree with them, but they always merit serious, proper and full consideration.

Mr. Healey

Can the right hon. Gentleman give some idea of when the Government expect to conclude their consideration and take a decision on this matter?

Mr. Thorneycroft

No, Sir. Nor do I think it right to rush into decisions which would involve, in any event, the expenditure of several hundreds of millions of pounds by Western Europe. These are matters which deserve careful consideration.

24. Mr. Shinwell

asked the Minister of Defence what submissions were made to Her Majesty's Government by the representative of the United States of America who recently visited the United Kingdom on the creation of a mixed-manned nuclear force; and if he will make a statement.

26. Mr. Biggs-Davison

asked the Minister of Defence if he will make a statement on the result of the official visit of Admiral Ricketts.

30. Mr. Healey

asked the Minister of Defence if he will make a statement on his recent talks with Admiral Ricketts of the United States Navy.

Mr. Thorneycroft

Discussions with Admiral Ricketts covered both the broad military issues and the more detailed and technical questions to which the proposed force gives rise. They were of considerable value to ourselves and, I think, to the United States.

Mr. Shinwell

Does not the right hon. Gentleman consider that to be a most inadequate reply? If it is the intention of the Government to proceed with this fantastic scheme, have they considered what the cost would be and, in particular, how the scheme would become operative? These are not hypothetical questions. Would the right hon. Gentleman be good enough to inform the House of what is actually in his mind?

Mr. Thorneycroft

I think that it is an adequate answer. The visit of Admiral Ricketts was of great value. He was able to describe to us the broad military thinking which underlay the American proposals in this matter. I think that it would be wrong for me to enter into further details upon this until we have had time to give full consideration to this as well as to the political issues involved.

Mr. Biggs-Davison

Would it not have saved this distinguished officer a journey and this House considerable anxiety if the Government had made up their mind that we must concentrate our limited resources on our own nuclear deterrent force whether this is placed alongside the forces of allies or not? Will the Government now come to a decision and perhaps seize the opportunity of the visit of President Kennedy to make their decision perfectly clear?

Mr. Thorneycroft

It might have saved Admiral Ricketts a journey, but it would have been a discourtesy to an ally and an ill service to the House of Commons not to have informed ourselves fully on these matters.

Mr. Healey

Is it not now four months since this proposal was first made officially by the American Government to its allies? Are the Government to go on shilly-shallying for ever? On the technical question of the military feasibility of the proposed force, as a result of the discussions with Admiral Ricketts, can the right hon. Gentleman answer three questions which have been widely discussed in the Press and which have seriously disturbed hon. Members on both sides of the House?

First, does he think that the accuracy of the missiles carried by such a force will be sufficient to allow it to be used in an interdictory rôle by the N.A.T.O. Supreme Commander? Secondly, does he believe that such a force would be sufficiently invulnerable to escape destruction before it was required to be used? Thirdly, in spite of all the evidence, does he now believe—[Hon. Members: "Too long."]—It is not too long. This is a very important matter indeed, and so far hon. Members opposite have avoided discussing it. Thirdly, will the right hon. Gentleman say whether he believes that mixed crews of the nature pro- posed by the United States could be used operationally in tune of war?

Mr. Thorneycroft

The hon. Member has asked a series of questions on only one part of this problem, concerned with the feasibility of this proposal, but there is the question of the requirement as a whole and as to whether it is necessary, apart from its feasibility. On top of that, there is the question of the foreign policy, or political, side. Those things are better dealt with together when the decision is taken.

Sir J. Eden

Can my right hon. Friend say whether this proposal is being put forward by the Americans principally on the ground that this is the best way of preventing a further spread of nuclear weapons to other countries, and, if so, can he then declare that the political considerations are taking precedence over military practicality?

Mr. Thorneycroft

This is undoubtedly, and is well known to be, a factor in the minds of the Americans at present, but it would be quite wrong in question and answer to isolate one factor and pay too much attention to it.

Mr. P. Williams

On a point of order. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the answer, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.