§ 10. Mr. Rossasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will estimate the amount to be paid into the National Insurance Fund this year by contributions to the graduated insurance scheme, and the total amount to be paid out.
§ Mrs. ThatcherIt is estimated that graduated contributions and payments in lieu will total £232 million and that £1,401 million will be paid out of the National Insurance Fund.
§ Mr. RossWill the Minister answer the Question that she knew was being asked? What is being paid out in respect of graduated pensions for this year?
§ Mrs. ThatcherI answered the question which the hon. Gentleman asked. I will answer his supplementary: the sum is approximately £½ million.
§ Mr. RossThe answer is that the hon. Lady's Department will collect £232 million this year in graduated contributions and will pay out in respect of the responsibilities for that £.½million.Is the Minister aware that there is a growing dissatisfaction and realisation that this is essentally unfair, and will she take steps to ensure that both immediately and ultimately people will get value for the money being deducted from their wages?
§ Mrs. ThatcherI find no growing dissatisfaction with the National Insurance Scheme except that engendered by hon. Members opposite.
§ 11. Mr. Lawsonasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will estimate the total amount paid into the National Insurance Fund since its inception by people who have now retired or died and in respect of whom no graduated pensions liability was acquired.
§ Mrs. ThatcherI regret that the available information does not enable me to do so.
§ Mr. LawsonIf the hon. Lady looks into this question she might be able to give us some explanation why it is that the contributions, as a percentage of benefits, have gone up from 74 per cent, in 1959 to 84 per cent. in 1962. Does this not suggest that there is a very large fraudulent extraction of contributions from the people of this country?
§ Mrs. ThatcherI make no comment on the actual figures given by the hon. Gentleman. I do not agree that it is a fraudulent extraction. Of those now drawing retirement pensions, the man who retired this year aged 65 could not have contributed, had he entered the scheme in 1926, more than £240 towards the cost of his pension, together with a similar sum on the part of his employer. The capital value of the pension for such a man, if single, is £1,700 and, if married, £3,500.
§ Mr. MitchisonIs not the net result of all this that the Treasury is paying less and less by way of its contribution?
§ Mrs. ThatcherThis year the Exchequer is paying some £212 million to the National Insurance Fund.
§ 12. Mr. J. Bennettasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what was the total income of the National Insurance Fund from employed persons and employers, respectively, including graduated contributions, in the year 1959–60; and what is the estimated income for the current year.
§ Mrs. ThatcherIn 1959–60 contributions from employed persons were £319 million and from employers £352 million. The estimates for this year, including graduated contributions and payments in lieu under the graduated pension scheme introduced in 1961, are about £499 million from employees and £562 million from employers.
§ Mr. BennettWill not the hon. Lady agree that this increase in revenue is really the result of a hidden form of taxation which falls heavily on those who can afford it least?
§ Mrs. ThatcherThe increases in contributions are primarily caused by the 12 large increases in benefits. They are further caused by the increasing number of people drawing increased benefits.