HC Deb 18 July 1963 vol 681 cc720-1
Q2. Mr. Shinwell

asked the Prune Minister what investigations have now been undertaken by the several Departments of the Government concerned into the effect of automation and mechanisation on the employment situation; and what conclusions have been reached.

The Prime Minister

The Ministry of Labour is about to carry out an inquiry which will cover the effects of technological change upon employment in the engineering and allied industries, and the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research is sponsoring several research projects on various aspects of automation.

The conclusion of earlier studies was that although automation would considerably alter the pattern of employment, it need not cause serious unemployment.

Mr. Shinwell

Surely the right hon. Gentleman recognises that the progress of automation, mechanisation and modernisation in industry is bound to have an effect on the number of persons employed. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that when he informs me that the Minister of Labour has been looking into it, as recently as eleven days ago I asked him about this and he said that he would look into the matter, apparently for the first time?

The Prime Minister

I believe there is a Question on Monday in reply to which my right hon. Friend intends to give a full Answer. While clearly all increased mechanisation and automation has an impact on the people employed in those particular industries; that is one side of the problem. That is why we are giving such importance to the plan for industrial training and redundancy provisions of which the House has been informed; but it does not necessarily mean—indeed, very much the opposite—a greater degree of total unemployment.

Mr. H. Wilson

Has the right hon. Gentleman seen American estimates showing that in that country where automation has been proceeding faster and earlier than in this country, they think they are going to require to produce 41 million additional jobs by 1970 and that we shall be faced with a similar, if smaller, problem in the later years of this present decade? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, while the inquiry to which he referred was going to be in the engineering and allied industries, American experience shows that the biggest problem from the employment point of view is the effect of introducing computers in clerical and white collar trades? Are the Government preparing for the problems which will arise there?

The Prime Minister

Yes, Sir, and this is the purpose of these inquiries which are being made. I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will agree that the worst possible policy would be to try to holdback technological progress.

Mr. P. Williams

Is my right hon. Friend aware of Mr. Khrushchev's boast that he intends to drive the capitalist economy into the ground and that this boast is based on the assumption of the automation of Russian industry? Therefore, is it not of paramount importance that Her Majesty's Government should do the utmost possible to introduce automative processes into British industry?

The Prime Minister

I agree with my hon. Friend. What we have to do is to proceed with technological progress, but to carry on at the same time with the studies as to how and by what methods the human problems that arise can be dealt with.

Mr. H. Wilson

Is it not a fact that one of the big troubles in this country is that we have not really begun to face this problem—quite the opposite of what the right hon. Gentleman was suggesting? Is it not shocking to anyone who knows our industrial history that, over the past 10 years, Britain has become not the world's biggest exporter of automated equipment, as we ought to be by our qualifications, but the world's biggest importer of automated equipment?

The Prime Minister

That seems to be another aspect of the problem, but not one to which the Question was directed.