§ 13. Mr. Dalyellasked the Minister of Labour how many men are being trained in all Government retraining centres; and what proportion of them are training in the skills of building.
§ Mr. HareOn 10th June, 1963, which is the latest date for which figures are available, 1,998 men were attending Government training centres of whom 89 were being trained in building skills.
§ Mr. DalyellA figure of 89 out of 1,900 does not coincide with the hopes expressed by the right hon. Gentleman on 8th April as reported in column 931 of HANSARD. Why is this so?
§ Mr. HareWe have been proceeding on the basis of providing very little training in the building trade until my new programme for extending adult retraining becomes effective. The reason is that there was considerable union opposition to it.
§ Mr. PrenticeIs it the Government's intention to expand training for skilled jobs in the building industry in their new programme of expanding Government training centres? Can the Minister give any estimate of the figures and when some of these courses will start?
§ Mr. HareI hope that when the full programme has been achieved we shall provide about 1,250 places for training in the skilled trades of the building 844 industry. That will allow for an output of about 2,500 people to be trained in one year.
§ 14. Mr. Dalyellasked the Minister of Labour how many men are retraining at the Government centres at Motherwell, Dunfermline, Glasgow, Dumbarton, Irvine and Greenock, respectively; and how many of these are being trained annually in skilled building trades.
§ Mr. HareNone of these centres is yet open, but those at Dunfermline and Motherwell are expected to be ready for occupation by September next. When in operation the six centres will be capable of training up to about 450 men per year for employment in the building industry.
§ Mr. DalyellShould not facilities be dramatically extended above 450 in the light of the argument by the Secretary of State for Scotland that the unsatisfactory house-building rate in Scotland is due to bottlenecks in building?
§ Mr. HareAs the hon. Member will realise from my Answer to his earlier Question, this is a very considerable increase in the training arrangements for people in skilled trades in the building industry. We may wish to extend it as time goes on, but it is a very marked increase on what has hitherto been done. Up to now we have had a great deal of objection from the unions.
§ 19. Mr. Prenticeasked the Minister of Labour if he will make a statement on the progress of his consultations with trade unions and employers' organisations arising from the White Paper on Industrial Training; and when he expects to introduce legislation on this subject.
§ Mr. HareConsultations with the British Employers Confederation and the T.U.C. have enabled good progress to be made in preparing draft legislation. These consultations are to continue and discussions are also taking place with other industrial organisations and with employers' and workers' associations in individual industries. I hope to introduce legislation as soon as the Parliamentary programme permits.
§ Mr. PrenticeOn the latter part of the Minister's reply, would he agree to make a more detailed announcement as soon as he can, giving as much information as he can? Will he bear in mind that 845 certain problems arise in industry because of the uncertainty of the timetable? Does he agree that unfortunately some employers are holding back their own training plans and waiting to see what the Government will produce? Therefore, the sooner the Minister can make a definite pronouncement on the timetable the better.
§ Mr. HareI share the hon. Gentleman's eagerness to have this Measure on the Statute Book. It will not be any fault of mine if it is unduly delayed. I obviously cannot say more on timing than I have said at the moment. As to employers who are holding back, I have already said in the House how foolish and wrong they are to take this attitude.
§ Mr. Hector HughesDoes the Minister realise that this White Paper on Industrial Training is particularly relevant to places where there are industries involving high technical skills, such as Aberdeen with its shipyards and engineering shops? Will he say what advice he has sought from the local trade unions about local conditions relevant to the White Paper?
§ Mr, HareI am in full accord with the hon. and learned Gentleman's view about the importance of Aberdeen. However, he must realise that this is a national scheme and other Members of the House may think there are other places just as important as Aberdeen. That is not a subject on which I should like to have a debate. I can assure the hon. and learned Gentleman that we are discussing with both sides of industry and with individual industries how to implement the proposals put forward in the White Paper.
§ 39. Mr. Dempseyasked the Minister of Labour if he will have regard to the part-time courses already provided in technical colleges when inaugurating training courses envisaged in the White Paper on industrial training.
§ Mr. HareI have every hope that the training boards to be set up under the White Paper proposals will want to take full advantage of courses provided in technical colleges.
§ Mr. DempseyWill the Minister see that wasteful competition and duplication of services are prevented, if at all possible? With this type of training, is it the intention to train, for example, 846 redundant railway men, redundant steel workers, and redundant workers about to lose their craft work because of the technological revolution that has taken place in this country, so that they may be fitted into some other craft, and given employment?
§ Mr. HareRetraining will certainly come within the scope of these boards. In reply to the first part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question, one of the jobs of the boards will be to co-ordinate activity. There will be representatives of education as well as of both sides of industry represented on the boards and I hope that the sort of duplication and waste that the hon. Gentleman has in mind will be avoided.