HC Deb 03 July 1963 vol 680 cc363-5
17. Mr. Hayman

asked the Secretary of State for War on whose authority orders were recently issued to the sentries at Moor Gate, near Okehampton Camp, in the Dartmoor National Park, authorising them to inform members of the public that by by-laws anyone proceeding beyond a certain point on firing days might be taken into custody without warrant; and if he is aware that the by-laws enacted in 1940 lapsed 13 years ago when Defence Regulation 52 came to an end, and the proposed new by-laws have not yet been enacted.

Mr. Godber

No new orders have recently been issued. I am advised that the by-laws made for the Okehampton range in 1940 are still valid.

Mr. Hayman

Will the right hon. Gentleman take into account that some lawyers, at least, dispute that assertion and say that the by-laws are no longer operative? Will he take note of the fact that I have in my possession a copy of an order issued which instructs sentries to warn a person that he may be arrested without notice? May I ask him to take into account that the legal position is such that the proposed new by-laws will not be operative against the Venville Commoners who are not prepared to sell their ancient rights to him?

Mr. Godber

On the point about the orders, I said that no new orders had been issued; but, of course, there have been orders in relation to this over a long period. On the question of the legal position, which is very involved—I accept that—I shall be happy to write to the hon. Gentleman setting out the position as I see it, if that is what he would like me to do.

Mr. P. Browne

Is my right hon. Friend aware that it would appear that the proposed by-laws go beyond the planning permission given in 1947 as a result of the 1946 inquiry, and will he, before these by-laws come into force, institute another local inquiry?

Mr. Godber

No. I have looked into this point and I understand that in fact the new by-laws will cover an area within the overall area for which we have planning permission. I therefore do not think that a public inquiry is necessary.

Mr. Hayman

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman if he will give an assurance to the House that no person will be prevented from going on to the moor until the assertion of the right hon. Gentleman has been tested in the courts?

Mr. Godber

No. I could not give such an assurance. As I understand the legal position, the matter is covered at the present time. The hon. Gentleman is doubtful about that. I have said that I will write to him about it, but I could not give an assurance of this kind. After all, it is in the interests of the people themselves that they do not get involved in any danger.

Mr. Paget

Is there a case for warning these people not that if they proceed beyond a certain point they may be arrested without warrant but that they may be shot?

Mr. Godber

That would be a relevant factor.