HC Deb 02 July 1963 vol 680 cc207-11
Mr. Lipton

On a point of order. Mr.Speaker, I seek your guidance in the following matter. On 10th November, 1955, I made a personal statement in the House withdrawing charges I had made that Philby was the"third man" who had warned Burgess and Maclean.

I made this statement having regard, in particular, as I said at the time, to the speech three days previously of the then Foreign Secretary, the present Prime Minister, in which he said: I have no reason to conclude that Mr. Philby has at any time betrayed the interests of this country, or to identify him with the so-called 'third man', if, indeed, there was one."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 7th November, 1955;Vol. 545, c. 1497.]

Mr. Speaker

What is the point of order which arises now? Can that be made plain to me?

Mr. Lipton

Subsequent events have shown that I should not have made that personal statement, but I had to assume at the time that the then Foreign Secretary had wider access to more information than was available to me. What I now hope may be possible is that the formal decision of the House will enable me to withdraw that personal statement so that the record may be put straight.

Finally, I ask you and the House to believe that in connection with this matter I have been animated by no desire other than to serve loyally and to the best of my ability the interests of my country and the people I have had the honour to represent for many years.

Mr. Speaker

The hon. Member's observations about his motives will no doubt appear in the OFFICIAL REPORT of today's proceedings. He must take procedural advice about securing some pronouncement on the other matter. I cannot do anything about it myself, much as I would like to help the hon. Member.

Mr. Wigg

Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. This case, like the recent one, has no place in the precedents of the House. This is a completely unique situation and my hon. Friend, therefore, has no recourse but to come to you and the House and seek guidance about the steps which should be followed.

May I make one point plain? Not wishing to lack in generosity, we gave the Prime Minister notice that we intended to raise this matter today and, not wishing to lack in respect, we gave you notice, Sir. The Prime Minister's honour is not involved, but his competence is. My hon. Friend and I accepted statements made by the Prime Minister, doubtless made in good faith, but a Select Committee was refused and a judicial inquiry was refused and every point of fact was ignored and as a result—

Mr. Speaker

It is perfectly true that the hon. Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg), with his usual courtesy, told me that he wanted to raise something of this kind. That does not entitle him to make a speech about it now. I would be obliged if he would make his point to me.

Mr. Wigg

I am coming to the point of order. [HON. MEMBERS:"Oh."] I do not know why hon. Members opposite resent this. This, like the previous case, concerns the security of the country. My hon. Friend the Member for Brixton (Mr. Lipton) has been traduced. He has been—

Mr. Speaker

There must be a point of order which arises now and which entitles the hon. Member to address me. I am not causing him to resume his seat with violence, or rapidly, but I must follow the rules of the House and know what is the point of order on which he has risen.

Mr. Wigg

The point of order is this, [Interruption.] I can understand and sympathise with the anxiety of hon. Members opposite. I do not want to use too strong words, although I could use the word"blackmail", but my hon. Friend was coerced into withdrawing a statement because of the action of the Government. The point is that either the Prime Minister had full knowledge, in which case he was a rogue, or he did not have full knowledge, in which case he was a fool. The House must decide what to do about it in relation to the honour of my hon. Friend.

Mr. Speaker

I want to know what the point of order is. With due respect, the whole thing is an abuse of our procedure unless there is a point of order.

Mr. Wigg

The point of order—[An HON. MEMBER:"Bogus."] I wish that the hon. Member who made that statement would get up and say why it is bogus.

My point of order is this, that my hon. Friend was coerced into making a personal statement withdrawing something which is known to be true. The Prime Minister, who was given notice, is not here, and he was the man who made the statement. In those circumstances, surely a method has to be found. I would have thought that we could leave it to the generosity of the Government to put a Motion on the Order Paper so that my hon. Friend would be able to withdraw his personal statement.

Mr. Speaker

I can help the hon. Member. If he feels in need of assistance about the procedure and practice of the House I would humbly offer my services to him in private, and, indeed, the officers of the House would be anxious to assist, but more than that on any point of order I cannot say. There is not one.

Mr. H. Wilson

On this point of order—[HON. MEMBERS:"There is not one."] This is between us and you, Mr. Speaker. On the point of order—[Interruption.]

Mr. Speaker

Order. I would be obliged if the House would keep quiet. I am being addressed and I desire to hear what is being said to me.

Mr. H. Wilson

On the point of order raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Brixton (Mr. Lipton), could you confirm what I, and, I think, some of us thought we heard you say earlier on this difficult matter of how the personal statement which my hon. Friend was very much pressed and coerced into making could be withdrawn from the record or corrected? Did we understand you to say much earlier that you would take this matter under advisement, consider how this could be done, if it could be done at all, and report to the House? If that is what we understood you to say, it could end this business and we could get on with the foreign affairs debate.

Mr. Speaker

I do not think that I said that. I shall look at what I said. If I said that, I did not mean to say anything of the kind. The position is that as to the methods of recording the facts now revealed, and so on, and what happened in November, 1955, there are no doubt procedures available, but they do not arise now.

I ask the right hon. Gentleman and the hon. Member in question, if they wish to do so, to come and consult us privately when we shall give all the advice we can about the available methods, but I can give no further help now.

Mr. Bellenger

What I should like to put to you, Mr. Speaker, is that this is the second occasion on which on the word of Ministers private Members have been forced to retract, apologise, or withdraw statements they have made in the House. Would you allow me to ask the Leader of the House whether he can do something to ascertain what we could not ascertain before?

Mr. Speaker

Questions of this kind do not arise today. We concentrate a good deal on business matters on Thursday. If we had to argue business questions every day we should never get on at all.

Mr. G. Brown

I am a bit puzzled by what you have just said, Mr. Speaker, that if we wish to consult you privately you will give us some help. My hon. Friend the Member for Brixton (Mr. Lipton) is in the unenviable position that he was pushed into withdrawing something which has turned out to be accurate. On what ground do you deny us in public the advice which he asks of you in public which you say you are willing to give in private?

Mr. Speaker

This is much too clever for me. I am not here to give guidance in public. That is not my duty. My duty is to rule on points of order when they arise.

I respectfully, and as courteously as I could, offered assistance in thinking out procedures whereby the hon. Gentleman might attain his end, but I have no right to detain the House by suggesting them now, and in any event would wish to think out the matter with those who can help me. There is no other mystery about it. The point is that it does not arise as a point of order at this moment, and we have much to do.