LONDON GOVERNMENT BILL (Hansard, 24 January 1963)

§ Mr. A. Lewis
On a point of order. May I seek your guidance and advice, Sir Robert? During our proceedings a few moments ago, before the Division, the hon. Member for Battersea, South (Mr. Partridge)—who, incidentally, I have tried to contact to give notice that I would raise this matter but I have been unable to do so—referred to the hon. Member for Croydon, North-West (Mr. F. Harris) as a "renegade", said that he was "lacking in courage" and was speaking" only to waste time".
Surely it is not in order for an hon. Member to call another hon. Member a renegade and to say that he is speaking only to waste time? Surely this is a reflection on the Chair. Indeed, the hon. Member for Battersea, South did not even have the decency to inform his hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, North-West that he intended to make those remarks. Surely the hon. Member for Battersea, South should at least withdraw or apologise for making those statements, otherwise our proceedings will surely have been brought into contempt?

§ Mr. M. Stewart
Further to that point of order. I wish to take up particularly the use of the word "renegade". At the end of Chapter XIX in the Sixteenth Edition of Erskine Maythere appears what are described as Certain expressions which have caused the Chair to intervene from time to time. It is a fairly lengthy and interesting list and I do not propose to read it all. It is interesting to notice that there are footnotes giving the dates on which each 418 was used and to discover that the great majority of them were used before the Labour Party was even founded. Since the arrival of Labour hon. Members there seems to have been a sharp decline in the number of offensive expressions used.
Without wishing to quote them all I would draw attention to the fact that although the word "renegade" does not yet feature in the list—and the Chair has not had to intervene concerning the use of this word by one hon. Member about another—there are a number of expressions which, in my judgment, would be held by most hon. Members to be at least as offensive as "renegade". The expressions in Chapter XIX refer to "blackguard," "jackass, behaving like a" and even "dog."

§ Mr. A. Lewis
"Rat" also appears.

§ Mr. Stewart
I think, that on the whole, most hon. Members would prefer one of those expressions to being called a "renegade". Further, the hon. Member for Battersea, South stated that his hon. Friend was lacking in courage and I notice that the word "coward" appears in the list. I respectfully submit, therefore, that there is a good deal in the point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for West Ham, North (Mr. A. Lewis).

§ Mr. F. Harris
As I am the hon. Member who appears to have come into this situation, I should explain that my only crime seems to have been that I left the Chamber for a short while to get something to eat. If there are any hon. Members present now who were here 419 when I spoke on several occasions earlier I think that they would be the last to accuse me of lacking courage. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] Since this matter was made known to me I have endeavoured to contact my hon. Friend the Member for Battersea, South (Mr. Partridge) but it seems that he has gone as quickly as he made those comments.
I must confess that the support I have got in this matter has come from a rather unusual quarter. I ask you, Sir Robert, to protect me in this matter and to ask the hon. Member for Battersea, South if he will be kind enough to withdraw his very offensive comments.

§ The Deputy-Chairman (Sir Robert Grimston)
I am not prepared to rule that "renegade" is an un-Parliamentary term. The fact that the hon. Member was not here at the time is not really a matter for me, and I do not think that a point of order for me arises in this case.

§ Mr. M. Stewart
Does that mean, Sir Robert, that in future we may use the word whenever we think it appropriate?

§ The Deputy-Chairman
It depends on the circumstances and the way in which it is used. I am not prepared at this moment to rule it out of order.

§ Mr. F. Harris
Further to that point of order, Sir Robert. Do you mean that the hon. Member for Battersea, South (Mr. Partridge), even though I was temporarily absent—and I have been here for most of the last two days—can actually call me a "renegade" with your approval?

§ The Deputy-Chairman
I am not giving or withholding approval. I cannot rule that at the moment it is an un-Parliamentary term.

§ Mr. Harris
Surely, Sir Robert, I must get protection from somewhere. I cannot be in more than one place at one time, and if I am to be called a renegade at any time in this House I am surely entitled to the protection of the Chair.

§ Mr. A. Lewis
Further to that point of order, Sir Robert. I do not know whether you were in the Chair at the time, but a number of my right hon. and hon. Friends immediately told 420 the hon. Member for Battersea, South (Mr. Partridge) that he should have the decency to withdraw his remark and that he should have had the decency at least to tell the hon. Member for Croydon, North-West (Mr. F. Harris) that he intended to speak about him. Even if you cannot rule that the word itself is out of order, at least there might be some expression to the effect that the hon. Member for Battersea, South should have had the decency to observe the usual courtesies of the House.

§ The Deputy-Chairman
I am not prepared to rule on decency. I have given my Ruling, and I cannot take the matter further now.

§ Mr. Cooper
I should like to make a point of explanation. Earlier in this evening's proceedings I suggested that the right hon. Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede) had supported me in Ilford's application for county borough powers in 1953. Although the right hon. Gentleman denied that, I did not withdraw my remarks because I first wanted to check the facts. I have checked the facts, and find that while it is true that the right hon. Gentleman did not support the Ilford Corporation in the Division Lobby, he said: What it needs is that, in the light of the great developments that have taken place in the spread of population … when the present organisation was really built up, we should have some regard to the way in which the present population and its distribution could be better served were the organisation itself overhauled and, in some cases, the boundaries revised."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 26th March, 1953; Vol. 513, c. 938.] I took that for support, and I apologise. It is interesting to note that the Opposition Chief Whip on that occasion did go into the Division Lobby with me.

§ Mr. Ede
I thank the hon. Member for making that statement. I was blocking the Ilford Bill at 2.30 in the afternoons, and on one afternoon when it was called an hon, colleague of mine spoke to me, and I forgot to block the Bill. That is the most I have ever done for Ilford.

§ Mr. M. Stewart
Perhaps I may return for a moment, Sir Robert, to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for West Ham, North (Mr. A. Lewis). Although it is difficult at any time to 421 take the hon. Member for Battersea, South (Mr. Partridge) seriously, I suggest that the use of the word in question is a serious point. It is an extremely unpleasant expression. We understood you to say that you are not ruling at present whether it was un-Parliamentary, but I think that we are entitled to ask—

§ The Deputy-Chairman
I said that I was not prepared to rule that it is un-Parliamentary.

§ Mr. Stewart
I understood you to say that you were not prepared to rule on that at this moment. Is there any way in which the Committee can get a judgment on the point? I submit that 422 it is important. A Ruling that the word "renegade "is permissible would, I think, be a very serious matter, indeed.

§ The Deputy-Chairman
Perhaps I should make myself clear. I feel on the information I have in these circumstances that the word was not un-Parliamentary. I cannot rule for all time that it is not un-Parliamentary, but I have ruled that on this occasion it was not, and I can take the matter no further.

§ Mr. F. Harris
Further to that point of order, Sir Robert. If I cannot get any protection from you in regard to this comment, I shall personally treat it with the sheer contempt it deserves.