HC Deb 19 February 1963 vol 672 cc242-8
The Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs (Sir Keith Joseph)

With your permission Mr. Speaker, and that of the House, I wish to make a statement about the provision of land for housing for Birmingham, Liverpool and Manchester.

As the House may recall, I referred during the debate on the Address to the urgent need to increase the rate of slum clearance in these three cities, and I said that the authorities could assume in making their programmes that the land would be available. Bigger programmes are planned and the Government have been reviewing the land prospects.

First, Birmingham and Liverpool. The Government have now decided themselves to make a substantial contribution by proposing the designation of two new towns, one at Redditch for Birmingham and the other at Runcorn for Liverpool. The intention would be that at both places there should be expansion to about 70,000 population; but if there are objections they will be heard at a public inquiry before a final decision is made. These proposed new towns would do much to improve the prospects. They would provide for private development as well as public.

But the needs of both cities are so great that they can only be met by a comprehensive programme involving, as well as new towns, the intensive redevelopment of cleared sites within the cities, some building on nearby land, and greater progress in town expansion schemes. Both the city councils are willing to co-operate in such a comprehensive programme. In particular, they will reinforce even more the efforts of smaller towns to expand by drawing population from Birmingham and Liverpool.

My Department will be especially concerned to help forward the town development schemes at Widnes, Ellesmere Port, Daventry and Worcester.

It must be some time before large numbers of houses could be built in the proposed new towns, and it may be that still more land will have to be found in the meanwhile to enable the slum clearance programmes to be accelerated to the highest practicable level over the next few years. With this in mind I am considering whether any modifications are needed in Lancashire County Council's proposals for a Merseyside green belt and I shall shortly discuss this with the county council.

In the case of Birmingham, I am asking the city council to examine whether there is need for still more land to sustain its programme. I am suggesting to the council that if there is it should consult with its neighbouring county councils about finding it and should then put proposals to me as necessary.

Manchester. The city council has pressed on me the case for a new town to meet their needs. The Government accept that in spite of the efforts which the council is itself making at Westhoughton and elsewhere, Manchester's housing programme will need further development on the scale of a new town. But a suitable site, or sites, will be difficult to find in this area, and I propose, after further investigation, to consult with the local authorities about it. While, therefore, the Government accept the need, they have as yet no specific proposal to make.

In the meantime, the Government look to Manchester to press ahead with town development schemes at Winsford, Macclesfield and Crewe. The city council will also need to consider, in consultation with the county councils, whether further residential land ought to be allocated in the years immediately ahead.

The sum of these proposals for the three cities should, together with the new towns at Skelmersdale and Dawley which have already been authorised, cater for their land requirements until the 1970s.

The longer term needs of the Midlands and the North-West are now being studied by my Department and I expect that provisional conclusions will emerge later this year. But it is clear that the proposals that I have announced today are both necessary in themselves and will fit in to the long-term plan.

Mr. M. Stewart

Is the Minister aware that his statement will be received, on the whole, with gratification by hon. Members on this side who have for so long urged on the Government the need for more new towns?

May I ask three questions? First, is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that the two new towns he has in mind are so located that they can develop as genuine new towns and not as satellites?

Secondly, can he ensure that these aspects of Government policy for which he is responsible are properly coordinated with other aspects, in particular, the attitude of the Board of Trade towards the location of industry, and with Government policy towards the railways and other means of transport?

Thirdly, referring to that part of his statement which dealt with redevelopment and the use of nearby land, would the right hon. Gentleman agree that altogether these proposals mean, on the one hand, a great expenditure of public money, and, on the other, a great increase in some places in the value of land which is private property? What proposals have the Government for seeing that private persons who will greatly benefit from this development make some contribution towards its public cost?

Sir K. Joseph

On the first point raised by the hon. Gentleman, these are intended to be balanced communities. The sites which have been chosen are natural growth points well adapted to industrial expansion. But to be realistic, it will not be a disadvantage that travel to work from them is practicable to the nearby cities as well.

The hon. Gentleman went on to question whether Government policy as a whole is co-ordinated on this issue. I can assure the House that it is. My right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade has, of course, an overriding duty to the development districts. But, subject to that, he will do his best to steer industry to these overspill areas.

I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman's third question arises on this statement.

Sir J. Barlow

On the question of the development of Manchester, is my right hon. Friend aware that all three suggestions relate to the south of the city? Will he consider the possibility and advisability of extending Manchester to the north, where the land is of less agricultural value, where very often it is higher and more healthy, and will he bear in mind that there are many other advantages in extending to the north rather than to the south?

Sir K. Joseph

I think that my hon. Friend is referring to the town development scheme which I happened to mention. Of course, Manchester has a number of town development schemes all round and what I am saying today is that the search for extra land on the scale of a new town for Manchester will be conducted all round the city.

Mr. Grimond

I welcome any proposal for slum clearance. May I ask two questions of the right hon. Gentleman? Is there not a shortage of skilled labour in the building industry, and, if so, what proposals has he for increasing the supply? Is it not a fact that the towns will not be self-sufficient new towns, but will be dormitories? What proposals has he for siting self-sufficient new towns particularly in areas of high unemployment away from the Midlands? Is he aware that there is a need in Scotland, in the north of England and north of Manchester?

Sir K. Joseph

I must repeat that these are not satellite or dormitory towns. It is intended that they should be balanced communities and be able to attract industry because of their natural advantages. The question of extra skilled men in the building industry is primarily a matter for my right hon. Friend the Minister of Public Building and Works. But both he and I consider the programme envisaged by the Government to be such that with all the output of the traditional industry we shall have to look to industrialised building, including industrialised housing, to help us to get the extra output.

On the third point I must point out that land is the primary bottleneck in these big cities. It is not the primary bottleneck in the North-East. I would not presume to speak for Scotland.

Mr. G. Lloyd

Is the Minister aware that his decision to base a new town at Redditch will be very much welcomed in Birmingham, because it gives promise of helping more quickly with the housing problem than would a policy based completely on an individual new town?

Mrs. Braddock

Has the Minister made any inquiries from Liverpool about how many people would be prepared to move from the centre and the areas of Liverpool to Runcorn in view of the difficulty about the new town of Ellesmere Port? Further, following the Question I asked some time ago, has any inquiry been made in Liverpool to see how much spare land there is which could be used immediately instead of waiting years for new housing sites?

Sir K. Joseph

I invited the hon. Lady to send me details of the sites which she has in mind. I am saying that we have in these big cities a need for all four initiatives to go on simultaneously—new towns, town development, building nearby and intense development of empty sites in the city.

As to the willingness of people to move to Runcorn I think, from the experience of new towns elsewhere, that provided work is available they will be only too glad to move.

Sir A. V. Harvey

Referring to the question about developing to the north of Manchester, asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Middleton and Prestwich (Sir J. Barlow), will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that Macclesfield is nowhere the north of Manchester? Will he take into account the fact that industry must come along to give jobs to the people before we get the people there? Also, will he remember that Manchester could do much more to help itself with its housing problem and start to develop its own areas in the city and on the outskirts?

Sir K. Joseph

I will remember all that my hon. Friend has said, but in defence of Manchester I must say that during the last few years Manchester has made strenuous efforts, including those made in Westhoughton recently.

Mr. Dugdale

Will the right hon. Gentleman make clear that the new town in the Birmingham area is for the use of people not only in Birmingham, but in the surrounding Black Country towns, which are very overcrowded?

Sir K. Joseph

Without wishing to underestimate the needs of the Black Country towns generally, I must repeat that this is primarily for Birmingham.

Mrs. Hill

Is my right hon. Friend aware that Manchester will be rather disappointed that it has not got a new town? Is he aware that we are having to send people out into so many different districts at present that we are virtually nibbling at the problem of our slum clearance? Is he also aware that it is not that we have no declared areas, but that we have not the land on which to put people in order to rebuild on the existing sites, and that people are not yet willing to go out to other towns, whether it be Crewe, or Macclesfield, or other places?

Sir K. Joseph

I certainly realise the scale of Manchester's needs. But I think that the hon. Lady will be encouraged to know that whereas Manchester has averaged about 1,600 completions a year for the last five years, it is hoping to touch 5,000 next year.

Mr. Swingler

Will the Minister now set a time limit to the sterilisation of valuable sites while overspill discussions are going on? Is he aware that for nearly three years a large and valuable site at Swynnerton, in Staffordshire, has been unused and sterilised while awaiting a decision about a new town for Birmingham. The right hon. Gentleman did not mention that. Can we have a time limit so that we may know when the site may be used?

Sir K. Joseph

I cannot give a time limit, but I can say that the sooner we can produce the results of the surveys which are going on in the North-West and the Midlands the sooner we can come to a decision.

Several Hon. Members rose—

Mr. Speaker

Order. We cannot discuss this now. I think that 18 hon. Members are concerned in just two cities, so we really cannot cover all the ground.

Mr. V. Yates

On a point of order. As Birmingham has been specifically mentioned, Mr. Speaker, surely an opportunity should be given for an hon. Member who represents that city to ask a question.

Sir K. Thompson

May I know on what basis, Mr. Speaker, you assess the importance of Manchester as being four times greater than that of Liverpool?

Mr. Speaker

I looked eagerly in the direction of the hon. Member but he remained seated at the time.

I do not think that Birmingham has been wholly unrepresented. I realise the wide interest in this matter, but we must get on to other things.

Mr. V. Yates

With all due respect to what you have said, Mr. Speaker, no hon. Member from Birmingham has taken part in this discussion. [HON. MEMBERS: "Yes."] I beg to differ. The right hon. Member opposite who spoke is the Member for Sutton Coldfield (Mr. G. Lloyd), which is not Birmingham. Surely, on this vital matter, we ought to be allowed to put a question to the Minister about its effect on Birmingham.

Mr. Speaker

If the House would like to relieve the Chair of the burdensome, troublesome and heart-breaking duty of selecting hon. Members to ask questions and make speeches, that would be perfectly welcome to me, but until it does it will have to rest with me and I cannot be dictated to by others.

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