HC Deb 13 February 1963 vol 671 cc1286-7
13. Mr. E. Johnson

asked the Secretary of State for War how much pension an Army captain's widow received in December, 1952; and what is the value of that pension in real terms today, including all increases and assuming that she is 60 years of age.

Mr. Ramsden

One hundred and ten pounds and £107, respectively.

Mr. Johnson

Do not those figures show that these widows have been very badly treated, in that the increases given have been nothing like enough for them? Even if, as my hon. Friend said last week, he is unable to rewrite history, will he invoke the aid of the Treasury in this very laudable object? I am sure that he himself has every sympathy for the ex-Service men, of whatever rank, and their widows?

Mr. Ramsden

I appreciate the way in which the hon. Member puts the matter in the second half of his supplementary question, but I do not think that we ought to hide behind the Treasury over this. We must uphold the principle that my right hon. Friend and I have tried to explain in reply to Questions in the last few weeks. The figures show that within the basis upon which these pensions were awarded we have, within a very few pounds, succeeded in preserving their original value.

Mr. Johnson

May I ask my hon. Friend whether he is really upholding the principle that a pension given ten years ago for widows whose husbands deserved well of the country should be worth less today? Surely that is a most astonishing principle to uphold.

Mr. Ramsden

According to the timing of the pension increase there might be some variation one way or another, but the figures I have given show that we have about hit the mark.

18. Mr. E. Johnson

asked the Secretary of State for War how much Service pension would be received by the widow, who is between 40 and 60 years of age, of a private soldier discharged after 22 years' service before 1st September, 1950, between 1st September, 1950, and 4th November, 1958, assuming in this case that widowhood occurred before 4th November, 1958, and at the present time, respectively.

Mr. Ramsden

None, none and one-third of their husband's pension or 16s. 10d. a week whichever is the greater.

Mr. Johnson

Is my hon. Friend aware that I welcome the great improvement shown in the position as a result of action by the present Government? But do not the first two figures tell a story of the most shameful neglect by successive Governments of the widows of men to whom the country owes a great deal? Is not it possible to see whether anything can be done to help them?

Mr. Ramsden

I think that the House would wish to have this matter in perspective and realise that, except in the case of Service officers, occupational schemes for widows' pensions over the whole national field are comparatively recent in origin. Before 1949 the widows of civil servants had no pensions at all. I do not see where we could draw the line if we started to make some widows eligible for pensions retrospectively.