HC Deb 06 February 1963 vol 671 cc439-41
29. Mr. E. Johnson

asked the Secretary of State for War haw much pension, including all increases, is received by a 55-year-old widow of a major who retired after maximum service in 1958 and died on 3rd November, 1958: and how much would it be if her husband had retired this year and died today.

Mr. Ramsden

£181 a year and£310 a year respectively.

Mr. Johnson

Is my hon. Friend aware that, although in the second case a major's widow would receive very much the same pension as that of a senior executive officer in the Civil Service, in the first case a Civil Service widow would receive some£85 more? Why did my right hon. Friend say in his speech on 20th December that there was no basis on which Service widows who lost their husbands before 3rd November, 1958, could be distinguished from any other category of public service pensioner, and when there is already that very considerable difference, why did he say that their pensions could not be reassessed unless those of all other Service pensioners were reassessed as well?

Mr. Ramden

If I understood my hon. Friend's supplementary question aright, I do not think I can altogether accept it. It is misleading to make comparisons between one Service and another which are supposedly based on comparable ranks. I think that my right hon. Friend was carrect—I believe the House accepted it—when he said that if it is a question of altering the basis of assessment we must do this overall—for one Service as well as for another.

Mr. Paget

Now that we are in a time when we are looking to expand spending power, ought we not to accept the principle that the same service deserves the same pension, and that it is dishonourable for a Government to pay pensions in bad money when they have been responsible for making that money bad?

Mr. Ramsden

We debated this subject, and the hon. and learned Gentleman made this point to my right hon. Friend and was answered. I do not think there is any change in the situation which warrants my going beyond what was then said.

Mr. Wade

In any case, is it not high time that the arbitrary distinction between widows of former members of the Armed Services who died before 3rd November. 1958, and others was abolished?

Mr. Ramsden

That is exactly the point. I have nothing to add to what has been said on former occasions.

Mr. Johnson

I wonder whether my hon. Friend fully understood the meaning of my question. What I was trying to make clear was that at the present time the Civil Service widow and the Service widow get the same amount of pension approximately, but before 1958 there was this very considerable difference. Surely there would be no need for reassessment to bring one up to the level of the other?

Mr. Ramsden

The difficulty about the Government's position is that we cannot rewrite history in this matter. When a basis has been laid down in the past, it cannot now be altered.

Hon. Members

Why not?

30. Mr. E. Johnson

asked the Secretary of State for War how much retired pay and terminal grant is received by a retired major who has today reached the age of 60 and was retired at 45; what is the normal compulsory age of retirement; and how much retired pay and terminal grant a major receive, who retires today after maximum service.

Mr. Ramsden

A major who retired at 45 and is now 60 gets£689 a year retired pay with no terminal grant. The normal compulsory age of retirement for a major is 55.

A major retiring today with maximum service receives£930 a year retired pay with a terminal grant of£2,790, of which£27 10s. a year retired pay and£82 10s. of the terminal grant are withheld until the 1st April of this year in accordance with the 1962 White Paper on Service Pay and Pensions.

Mr. Johnson

Is my hon. Friend aware that today the major and the senior executive officer in the Civil Service receive approximately the same amount of pension and the same terminal grant? On the other hand, is he aware that the retired major who is 60 today receives a pension some 40 per cent. less than that of a senior executive officer in the Civil Service of similar age and no terminal grant whatsoever? Does not he recall my right hon. Friend saying that it would be wrong to deal with Service men differently from other public service pensioners? But is that not what is happening?

Mr. Ramsden

I am afraid that we cannot give to those who have already retired the right of benefit from the improved conditions of service that Parliament has decided should apply to their successors.

Hon. Members

Why not?