HC Deb 18 December 1963 vol 686 cc1245-9
42. Mr. Donnelly

asked the Postmaster-General on how many occasions since September thefts have taken place of moneys in transit by mail.

Mr. Bevins

In the period 1st October to 16th December, 33 mail bags containing registered letters were reported missing. Only one of these bags, that despatched on 9th October, contained bankers' packets. The value of these bankers' packets was £15,250.

Mr. Donnelly

What is the right hon. Gentleman's normal procedure for making public such thefts, because it raises a great question of confidence in the Post Office security services?

Mr. Bevins

I think that that probably arises more appropriately on the next two Questions.

43. Mr. Donnelly

asked the Postmaster-General why he requested the Pembroke shire Constabulary not to take action in the case of the theft of £15,000 from the regular Haverford west to London mail train.

44. Mr. G. Thomas

asked the Postmaster-General why no public statement was made concerning the £15,000 mail robbery which took place in South Wales during October last; whether the serial numbers of the missing notes are known; and whether police assistance has been sought to solve the case.

Mr. Bevins

The case referred to concerns the loss of one mail bag despatched from Haverford west Post Office to the Carmarthen to Bristol Travelling Post Office on 9th October. The contents of the bag included four bankers packets containing £15,250. The enquiries that have been made, in full collaboration with the Police, including the Pembrokeshire, Carmarthenshire and British Transport Police, have so far failed to establish where the theft occurred. It was not considered in the public interest to issue a statement and accordingly the Pembrokeshire Police were asked not to give publicity to the loss. The numbers of some of the missing bank notes were known and these were given to the Police for circulation.

Mr. Donnelly

Is the right hon Gentleman aware that my information is that the Pembrokeshire Constabulary were not informed of this theft until two days had elapsed since the money was missing? Is he further aware that my information is that the Pembrokeshire Police were asked to take no action on this matter and to keep the matter secret? Is the right hon. Gentleman further aware that on top of this, despite the statement to the contrary of his Department reported in the Press in the last day, one of the local newspapers did telephone the local head postmaster shortly after hearing the rumour and was given a categorical denial that the theft had ever taken place?

Mr. Bevins

If I may answer the last part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question first, notably, is it not true that the Pembrokeshire Police were asked to do nothing about it, I want to say absolutely flatly that this is wholly without foundation. It is perfectly true that the Pembrokeshire Constabulary were not told for a matter of 48 hours, because it had not been established, within an earlier period than that, whether the mail bags had simply gone astray or whether they had been stolen, but any suggestion that we have not collaborated with the police authorities is entirely false.

Mr. G. Thomas

On the question of security, is it not a fact that there were absolutely no security steps taken when this money was in transit from Haverford west to Carmarthen, and that since the robbery steps are being taken? Is it not also a fact that an official of the right hon. Gentleman's Department has said that the reason why this robbery was not made public was because nobody asked them? Does the Minister wish to confirm that we have to inquire every day whether there has been a robbery? Is: he not aware that if it were not for the B.B.C. in Wales this story would never have come to light? Have we to depend on journalists—[HON. MEMBERS: "Speech."] This is a very important issue. Have we to depend on journalists to reveal to us that robberies have taken place today?

Mr. Bevins

I want to repudiate quite flatly, in dealing with the first part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question, that no security precautions were taken on this particular train. As regards publicity, I think the whole House will agree that when a robbery occurs the main thing is to detect the criminals and to recover the money, and the Post Office has to decide, case by case, according to circumstances, whether the issue of a public statement would either promote that end or tend to defeat it. Here, my investigation branch took the view, I believe rightly, that publicity would have hindered the detective operations at work.

Mr. Mason

Is not all this rather deplorable? Do I understand from the Postmaster-General that his Department was specifically responsible for stifling public release of the news of this robbery? Secondly, how general is this policy? The right hon. Gentleman says he does it case by case. Would he indicate how many cases have happened without our knowledge? Thirdly, is it not a fact that the police depend a great deal upon the assistance of the public? So if there had been a public release of the news there would have been a far better chance, probably—a quicker chance—to catch the criminals in this case.

Mr. Bevins

I do not know what the hon. Gentleman means by "stifling" publicity, but I can tell the hon. Gentleman that if the Post Office were to give publicity to every one of these cases which occur the newspapers would probably be taking far too much material from the Post Office—

HON. MEMBERS

Oh.

Mr. W. Hamilton

Not every day.

Mr. Bevins

—but I do say with respect to the hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends that the investigation branch of the Post Office, who are experts in these matters, are probably better judges of the value of publicity than they are.

Mr. Mason

Could I ask the right hon. Gentleman, have the criminals in this case been caught? If this complacent attitude of the Postmaster-General continues, is he not aware that soon the public will lose all faith in the Post Office services?

HON. MEMBERS

Nonsense.

Mr. Bevins

So far the criminals have not been apprehended, but I am hopeful that they will be, and I am hopeful, too, that their apprehension will be promoted and not hindered by the action which the Post Office has taken.

Sir C. Osborne

Apart from the publicity issue, is my right hon. Friend satisfied about the security side, remembering that about £250,000 was lost in the centre of London about a year ago and that no one has been apprehended for that? What with that theft and now this, and the August mail train robbery, is my right hon. Friend satisfied that the security precautions are as good as they ought to be in his Department?

Mr. Bevins

I have no exact figure, but I should say that during the four years I have been the Post Office Minister the expenditure on precautions both in Crown post offices and in respect of money in transit has been roughly trebled.

Mr. Donnelly

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, notwithstanding his claim that there was a security guard on this train, nobody travelled in this mail van with this money, and that this particular money was marked specially as a parcel of high value? Is he aware that there were keys to the mail van all the way up the line and that post offices were entitled to put mailbags in that van? How can he say with confidence that Post Office security services are proficient in conditions of that nature?

Mr. Bevins

I am certainly not going to comment on detailed points given by the hon. Member. It would be inimical to the best interests of the Post Office if I divulged what our precautions are.

Mr. Callaghan

Could the right hon. Gentleman say a little more about the time it took to establish that the theft had taken place? Did it really take 48 hours for the Post Office to be sure they had not got the bags in their possession?

Mr. Bevins

I have said quite freely to the House that the Pembrokeshire Police were not informed for 48 hours—[HON. MEMBERS: "Why not?"] That was so because these mail bags so often are misdirected. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I would ask the House to keep some sense of proportion about this. When one considers the millions and millions of mailbags that are in transit throughout the country it is inevitable that now and again the odd mailbag will be misdirected, and it is important that we should check on that before we start bringing the police on to the scene.

Mr. G. Thomas

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the Minister's reply, I propose to raise the matter—

Mr. F. Harris

They are very honest in Wales.

Mr. Thomas

—the English probably took it—on the Adjournment at the earliest possible moment.