HC Deb 02 December 1963 vol 685 cc761-5
14. Mr. W. Hamilton

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many retirement pensioners in Scot-, land are in receipt of National Assistance supplementation; what proportion this is of the total; and what is the average supplement being paid.

Mrs. Thatcher

At the end of June, 1963, 86,040 retirement pensioners in Scotland were receiving supplements from the National Assistance Board. Some of these grants provided for the requirements of a household with more than one pensioner, and it is estimated that the proportion of households receiving retirement pensions in which a supplement was also paid was 20.4 per cent. The average supplement was 17s. 9d.

Mr. Hamilton

Is not this further evidence that the basic pension is entirely inadequate? Will the Government give an assurance that one of the solutions to the problem—although not the only one—would be an increase in the basic pension? Will the hon. Lady also assure us that, when a statement is made on this, the Conservative Party, contrary to rumour, will not seek to solve the problem by putting the increase on National Assistance benefits, which means a means test, rather than on the basic pension?

Mrs. Thatcher

The proportion of retirement pensioners drawing National Assistance depends really on the relationship between the two scale rates, that is, National Insurance and National Assistance. If last time we had put up National Insurance rates without putting up those of National Assistance, we should have been subject to very severe criticism. The proportion of retirement pensioners drawing supplements has not altered materially in recent years.

Mr. John Hall

Does not my hon. Friend agree that the National Assistance system allows assistance to be given where it is most needed? Would she not also agree that, to encourage people who are reluctant to apply for National Assistance, it might be helpful to adopt the suggestion I have often advanced—change the name of the National Assistance Board, which is a very unfortunate name in the minds of many people?

Mrs. Thatcher

We have considered that from time to time, as my hon. Friend knows, but we do not believe that changing the name of the Board would achieve a material increase in the number of people applying for assistance. I would emphasise that one of the points about the system is that a person in need of help can get it readily this week—now—without having to fill in as much as a single form or visit a single Government office.

Mr. Mitchison

Is it the Government's intention to continue paying insufficient National Insurance pensions and to rely on the National Assistance Board to make them up to what is required to live on?

Mrs. Thatcher

As the hon. and learned Gentleman knows, insurance pensions are paid by virtue of contributions, quite regardless of need, and I think that the system we have of National Insurance on the one hand and National Assistance on the other, is right for present purposes.

23. Mr. Small

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many unemployed men in Scotland are in receipt of a National Assistance allowance below the scale because of the wage stop.

Mrs. Thatcher

About 6,500.

Mr. Small

Does the hon. Lady recognise that these figures relate to people who, because of the anomalies of the wage stop, are compelled to live below the standard set by the Government themselves? Will she review the situation, since this is not necessarily the best measurement to give justice to people who are unemployed?

Mrs. Thatcher

As the hon. Gentleman knows, we frequently discuss this in the House. The basic problem is that the wages system takes account only of a man's capacity to do a job and the social security system takes account of his family commitments. This is the point at which we have to have a reasonable compromise between the two, and the present regulations governing the wage stop are, I believe, reasonable.

Mr. Bence

Is the hon. Lady aware that the wage stop as applied in many areas is based upon the minimum hourly or weekly wage of a man working so many hours a week, whereas, in fact, most people working in industry earn, by agreement with their employers, a wage far above the minimum wage? Is it not quite unfair to a worker to set the stop at the minimum wage? Ought not the stop wage to be averaged according to the trade or occupation which a man follows in industry?

Mrs. Thatcher

The wages figure which, in consultation with the Ministry of Labour, the Board try to apply is what the man would earn if he went back to work this week. I think that this is a reasonable basis.

Mr. Lawson

Is the hon. Lady aware that there seems to be a practice now—this is so certainly in Lanarkshire—of the National Assistance Board itself scaling down the earning capacity of a man, for instance, reducing him from a general labourer to a person who is not physically fit to labour at all and paying him, therefore, on the basis of a person who is not physically fit to do a general labourer's job? Will she look into this?

Mrs. Thatcher

If the hon. Gentleman has any individual cases, we will, as he knows, look into them; but the basis which I have given—what a man would earn if he went back to work this week—is the one which the Board generally apply.

Miss Herbison

Will the hon. Lady look into this again? Does not she know that, taking the last two occasions on which increases were made in National Assistance rates, there were 6,500 people who got nothing from the last increase and nothing from the previous increase? Does not she realise how difficult it is for a man, his wife and his family to try to exist on an income quite a bit below what even this Government regard as necessary for mere subsistence and keeping body and soul together?

Mrs. Thatcher

I am aware of the difficulties, but I am quite sure that it would be wrong to pay a man more when he is out of a job than he could get if he went back to work.

27. Mr. Millan

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what estimate he has made of the number of persons in Glasgow who are in receipt of National Assistance supplementation, but whose regular weekly income falls below the National Assistance minimum scale rate.

28. Mr. Lawson

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what estimate he has made of the number of persons in Lanarkshire who are in receipt of National Assistance supplementation, but whose regular weekly income falls below the National Assistance scale rate.

Mrs. Thatcher

I regret that information from which such estimates could be made is not available.

Mr. Millan

Will the hon. Lady try to get such information? Quite apart from the detailed anomalies to which my hon. Friends have drawn attention, is it not quite wrong and distasteful in principle that in these cases the National Assistance Board should be deliberately paying people below the subsistence level?

Mrs. Thatcher

The information from which we get the wage stop figures arises from a sample survey. This gives us a reliable figure for a large area, but not for a small area such as the hon. Gentleman requests, which could be done only by taking an actual count. I do not think that I can usefully add to what I have already said about the wage stop.

Mr. Lawson

Is the hon. Lady aware that some of my hon. Friends asked for, and were given during the last Session, even more detailed information? If at one time we can get information related, for instance, to Hamilton and other places, why cannot we have similar information now? Will the hon. Lady look at the matter again, since I and other hon. Members know of people receiving as much as £2 less than her own Government consider should be the minimum standard below which no one should have to live?

Mrs. Thatcher

During consideration of the last general uprating provisions and the interaction between National Insurance and National Assistance, the Board took an actual count as we went through the papers. That count was relevant only to the uprating and the circumstances in which it was done. I shall, of course, look into any individual case which the hon. Gentleman puts to me.