HC Deb 01 August 1963 vol 682 cc629-33
20. Mr. Ross

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will state his policy on profits and dividends in the light of the views expressed in the Second Report of the National Incomes Commission.

21. Mr. Willis

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what steps he intends to take to ensure that increases in dividends and profits are kept strictly in step with increases in wages and salaries.

22. Mr. Lawson

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will make a statement on the Second Report of the National Incomes Commission, Command Paper No. 2098, with specific reference to paragraph 185.

23. Mr. W. Hamilton

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if, in the light of the views expressed in the Second Report of the National Incomes Commission, he will institute a survey of the policies and practices in relation to pricing, profit margins and dividends in the separate branches of the construction industry.

24. Mr. Millan

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is satisfied that he has all the statistical and other information on profits and dividends to enable him to implement an adequate national incomes policy; and what steps he is taking to augment such information.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

This is a valuable Report which contains a great deal of useful comment and advice on a number of matters, including profits. I hope it will be widely studied.

I agree with the Commission's view that profits being a form of income must, as such, come within the scope of any incomes policy which is to be effective and generally acceptable. The Government have already undertaken to restrain, by fiscal or other appropriate means, any undue growth of aggregate profits which may follow from restraint in earned incomes.

Nevertheless, as the Commission recognises, profits are quite different in kind from wages and salaries and it would be wrong to suggest that precisely the same considerations can be applied to both. The relationship between profits and wages and salaries in the context of a national incomes policy and of economic growth is under discussion in the National Economic Development Council.

A great deal of information about profits is already published. But this tends to be grouped under fairly broad headings and I agree that new ways will have to be found to obtain figures in the greater detail that the National Incomes Commission has in mind. We are discussing with the Federation of British Industries the best way of tackling this problem.

Mr. Ross

As well as being very valuable, does not the Chief Secretary agree that it is a matter of very considerable concern that the Commission declared itself unable to get the information on which it could base findings in relation to turnover and profit? If the right hon. Gentleman accepts to the extent indicated in his Answer that a survey of profits is urgently needed, does he equally accept the Commission's recommendation that this must be backed by enforcement powers to enable the Commission to get the information on which to base its findings? Does the Chief Secretary accept the reaction of the F.B.I. that somehow or other a Government can do what they like with wages but profits are, strangely, sacred and untouchable?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

As regards the last part of the supplementary question, perhaps the hon. Gentleman will study my main Answer, which is perfectly explicit on that point. On the question of information, as I said in my main Answer, we accept the Commission's view that better information should be available, and we are in discussion as to a better method of obtaining it.

Mr. Lawson

I doubt if anyone would challenge the assertion that better information should be available. Is not the point of the question whether the information that is asked for will be available? I am not able to feel confident about that from listening to the right hon. Gentleman. Is it his intention to ensure that the Commission is enabled to obtain the information that it asks for regarding profits?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

We are anxious to help the Commission in all aspects of its work and wish to co-operate with it, as we wish everybody in this country to co-operate with it. That is why I said that we are considering what methods are available for obtaining for the Commission the better information which it indicates it needs.

Mr. Hamilton

Can the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that the Government will be as tough with the F.B.I. as they have been with the nurses, teachers, probation officers, and the rest? Will he give an undertaking that by either administrative or legislative means he will give teeth and claws to the National Incomes Commission, because otherwise there is no prospect of getting an incomes policy at all?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

When one is entering into discussion with people as to the best method of obtaining information, it would be singularly maladroit to start by uttering threats.

Mr. Millan

The Chief Secretary has said that the Government are entering into discussions with the F.B.I. Have not the Government any ideas of their own? Are they making any suggestions to the F.B.I.? For example, are the Government doing anything about reforming the Companies Act so as to make very much more intelligible and significant figures on profits and turn-over legally necessary in the case of companies?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

I do not think that it would be very helpful to these discussions to give a preview of them.

Mr. Callaghan

Is not the Chief Secretary aware that the decision to refer this tiny corner of exhibition contracting to the National Incomes Commission has been regarded with ridicule by everybody on both sides of industry who knows anything about incomes? The somewhat pompous references of the Treasury at the end of the Report made the ridiculous all the more absurd. Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that so far the National Incomes Commission has been quite unable to command the respect or the assent of either side of industry? If the Chief Secretary wants a wages policy and an incomes policy, which I very much doubt, when does he propose to ensure that machinery will be provided which will commend itself to those who have to operate it?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

I do not know what it is about this Report which appears to have so irritated the hon. Gentleman. Most people have found it a valuable and a thoughtful document of very considerable public value. As I made clear, it is our desire to help the Commission in its work, and I wish the hon. Gentleman would give an indication of similar willingness.

Mr. Callaghan

Does not the Chief Secretary yet realise that exhibition contracting is a tiny and infinitisimal proportion of the industry concerned? It is the reference of that side of the industry which has aroused the ridicule of those concerned with the fixing of wage agreements in the whole of the construction industry. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that on this, as on speculative gains, the impression is fast gaining ground that he does not want to deal with profits anyhow, only with wages?

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

The hon. Gentleman could not have come to that conclusion if he had listened to my main Answer. As regards his main point, I think that this would be regarded with ridicule by people who fail to understand the relationship between the industry ha referred to and others.