§ Again considered in Committee.
Mr. RobertsonI was about to say that one of these days either myself or someone else will produce the full facts and figures. We shall have to do the work of the Scottish Office and produce the information which we should have had many years ago, and it will not be enough for the Under-Secretary, or the Secretary of State, simply to stonewall. The case for an increase in equalisation grant is unanswerable, and it is time that we finished with all the excuses and putting off that we have had over the years.
§ Mr. LeburnI agree with the hon. Member for Paisley (Mr. J. Robertson) that the exercise of calculating the Exchequer equalisation grant is extremely complicated. I do not think that at this time of night he would wish me to follow too far his argument on those lines.
When I read the proposed new Clause for the first time, I was fascinated by it. 347 I think that I saw the hand of the hon. Member for Glasgow, Craigton (Mr. Millan) in the drafting of it. I have listened very carefully to the arguments which he and the hon. Member for Paisley have put forward, but I cannot see any logical justification for accepting the new Clause.
The hon. Member for Craigton suggested that, because the proportion of rates borne by domestic householders in Scotland is higher than it is in England and Wales, the total Exchequer grant should be increased to take account of this fact. The other side of the proposition is that if, after the next revaluation, the domestic proportion of rates in Scotland is lower than it is in England, the grant hould be reduced. I am not sure that this would commend itself to Scottish local authorities. The hon. Member is quite right about the percentages of 59 and 53 which he mentioned and the way in which the percentages are moving, but if the idea is that the new Clause should be accepted only as long as it increases the grant payable to Scottish authorities it is a case of "Heads I win and tails you lose".
I can see no valid reason why the proportion of rates paid by householders should enter into the calculation of equalisation grant. The additional Exchequer contribution to local finances which this proposal would produce would be applied generally to the reduction of rates and would therefore help
§ all ratepayers, domestic and otherwise, and I think that the hon. Member for Craigton himself would say that some of them are being treated favourably enough already. The householders would, in fact, get only about half of the benefit.
§ Mr. MillanThat is fair enough, but the hon. Gentleman will realise that it is not possible to do everything that one wants to do in one new Clause.
§ Mr. LeburnI realise that.
The Exchequer equalisation grant is designed to bring the relative rating resources of local authorities un to a minimum standard and not to take account of the different distribution of rates between domestic and non-domestic subjects in England and Wales, on the one hand, and in Scotland, on the other.
I think, therefore, that the Exchequer equalisation grant must be based on a fair comparison of the total rating resources as a whole of local authorities in Scotland and in England and Wales, and not complicated by reference to the proportion of rates paid by any particular category of ratepayer. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will not continue to press his Clause.
§ Question put, That the Clause be read a Second time:—
§ The Committee divided: Ayes 142, Noes, 175.
349| Division No. 101.] | AYES | [10.6 p.m. |
| Ainsley, William | Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.) | Holman, Percy |
| Albu, Austen | Davies, Ifor (Gower) | Howell, Charles A. (Perry Barr) |
| Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) | Davies, S. O. (Merthyr) | Hoy, James H. |
| Bacon, Miss Alice | Deer, George | Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey) |
| Baxter, William (Stirlingshire, W.) | Delargy, Hugh | Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) |
| Beaney, Alan | Dempsey, James | Hunter, A. E. |
| Bence, Cyril | Dodds, Norman | Hynd, H. (Accrington) |
| Bennett, J. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) | Edelman, Maurice | Hynd, John (Attercliffe) |
| Benson, Sir George | Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly) | Janner, Sir Barnett |
| Blackburn, F. | Fernyhough, E. | Jay, Rt. Hon. Douglas |
| Blyton, William | Finch, Harold | Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.) |
| Boardman, H. | Forman, J. C. | Jones, Elwyn (West Ham, S.) |
| Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G. | Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton) | Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham) |
| Bowden, Rt. Hn. H. W. (Leics, S.W.) | Galpern, Sir Myer | Jones, T. W. (Merioneth) |
| Bray, Dr. Jeremy | Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C. | Kelley, Richard |
| Brockway, A. Fenner | Gourlay, Harry | Kenyon, Clifford |
| Brown, Thomas (Ince) | Griffiths, David (Rother Valley) | King, Dr. Horace |
| Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.) | Griffiths, W. (Exchange) | Lawson, George |
| Carmichael, Neil | Hamilton, William (West Fife) | Lee, Frederick (Newton) |
| Castle, Mrs. Barbara | Harper, Joseph | Lever, L. M. (Ardwick) |
| Cliffe, Michael | Hart, Mrs. Judith | Lewis, Arthur (West Ham, N.) |
| Collick, Percy | Hayman, F. H. | Loughlin, Charles |
| Craddock, George (Bradford, S.) | Henderson,Rt.Hn.Arthur(RwlyRegis) | Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson |
| Crossman, R. H. S. | Herbison, Miss Margaret | McBride, N. |
| Cullen, Mrs. Alice | Hill, [...]. (Midlothian) | MacDermot, Niall |
| Dalyell, Tam | Hilton, A. V. | McInnes, James |
| MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling) | Pursey, Cmdr. Harry | Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield) |
| Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg) | Randall, Harry | Thomas, George (Cardiff, W.) |
| Mallalieu, J.P.W. (Huddersfield, E.) | Rankin, John | Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.) |
| Manuel, Archie | Redhead, E. C. | Thompson, Dr. Alan (Dunfermline) |
| Mapp, Charles | Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon) | Thornton, Ernest |
| Mason, Roy | Robertson, John (Paisley) | Tomney, Frank |
| Millan, Bruce | Rodgers, W. T. (Stockton) | Wade, Donald |
| Milne, Edward | Rogers, G. H. R. (Kensington, N.) | Wainwright, Edwin |
| Mitchison, G. R. | Ross, William | Watkins, Tudor |
| Morris, John | Short, Edward | Weitzman, David |
| Mulley, Frederick | Silverman, Julius (Aston) | Wells, William (Walsall, N.) |
| Neal, Harold | Slater, Mrs. Harriet (Stoke, N.) | Whitlock, William |
| Oliver, G. H. | Small, William | Wilkins, W. A. |
| O'Malley, B. K. | Sorensen, R. W. | Williams, LI. (Abertillery |
| Oswald, Thomas | Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank | Williams, W. R. (Openshaw) |
| Padley, W. E. | Spriggs, Leslie | Willis, E. G. (Edinburgh, E.) |
| Parker, John | Steele, Thomas | Winterbottom, R. E. |
| Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd) | Stewart, Michael (Fulham) | Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A. |
| Peart, Frederick | Stones, William | Woof, Robert |
| Prentice, R. E. | Stross, Dr. Barnett(Stoke-on-Trent,C.) | Yates, Victor (Ladywood) |
| Price, J. T. (Westhoughton) | Swingler, Stephen | |
| Probert, Arthur | Taverne, D. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Mr. McCano and Mr. Grey | ||
| NOES | ||
| Agnew, Sir Peter | Hamilton, Michael (Wellingborough) | Partridge, E. |
| Allason, James | Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye) | Pearson, Frank (Clitheroe) |
| Atkins, Humphrey | Hastings, Stephen | Peel, John |
| Awdry, Daniel (Chippenham) | Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel | Percival, Ian |
| Balniel, Lord | Hendry, Forbes | Pike, Miss Mervyn |
| Barber, Anthony | Hill, J. E. B. (S. Norfolk) | Pitman, Sir James |
| Barlow, Sir John | Hocking, Philip N. | Pott, Percivall |
| Barter, John | Holland, Philip | Prior, J. M. L. |
| Batsford, Brian | Hollingworth, John | Proudfoot, Wilfred |
| Bell, Ronald | Hornby, R. P. | Pym, Francis |
| Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gos & Fhm) | Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hon. Dame P. | Redmayne, Rt. Hon. Martin |
| Berkeley, Humphry | Hughes Hallett, Vice-Admiral John | Rees, Hugh |
| Biffen, John | Hughes-Young, Michael | Renton, Rt. Hon. David |
| Bingham, R. M. | Hutchison, Michael Clark | Ridley, Hon. Nicholas |
| Bishop, F. P. | Irving, Bryant Godman (Rye) | Roberts, Sir Peter (Heeley) |
| Bourne-Arton, A. | James, David | Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks) |
| Box, Donald | Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle) | Roots, William |
| Braine, Bernard | Johnson, Eric (Blackley) | Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard |
| Brewis, John | Johnson Smith, Geoffrey | Russell, Ronald |
| Brooman-White, R. | Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.) | St. Clair, M. |
| Brown, Alan (Tottenham) | Jones, Rt. Hn. Aubrey (Hall Green) | Seymour, Leslie |
| Bullus, Wing Commander Eric | Kaberry, Sir Donald | Shaw, M. |
| Butcher, Sir Herbert | Kerans, Cdr, J. S. | Smith, Dudley (Br'ntf'd & Chiswick) |
| Carr, Robert (Mitcham) | Kershaw, Anthony | Smyth, Rt. Hon. Brig. Sir John |
| Chataway, Christopher | Kitson, Timothy | Speir, Rupert |
| Clark, Henry (Antrim, N.) | Langford-Holt, Sir John | Stevens, Geoffrey |
| Clarke, Brig. Terence(Portsmth, W.) | Leavey, J. A. | Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.) |
| Cleaver, Leonard | Leburn, Gilmour | Stodart, J. A. |
| Cooke, Robert | Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry | Studholme, Sir Henry |
| Cordeaux, Lt.-Col. J. K. | Lilley, F. J. P. | Talbot, John E. |
| Corfield, F. V. | Lindsay, Sir Martin | Taylor, Edwin (Bolton, E.) |
| Coulson, Michael | Lloyd, Rt. Hon. Selwyn (Wirral) | Taylor, Frank (M'ch'st'r, Moss Side) |
| Craddock, Sir Beresford (Spelthorne) | MacArthur, Ian | Temple, John M. |
| Critchley, Julian | McLaughlin, Mrs. Patricia | Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.) |
| Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. Sir Oliver | Maclay, Rt. Hon. John | Tiley, Arthur (Bradford, W.) |
| Curran, Charles | Maclean, SirFitzroy (Bute&N.Ayrs) | Tilney, John (Wavertree) |
| Currie, G. B. H. | McMaster, Stanley R. | Touche, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Macmillan, Rt. Hn. Harold(Bromley) | Turner, Colin |
| d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry | Macmillan, Maurice (Halifax) | Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H. |
| Deedes, Rt. Hon. W. F. | Macpherson, Rt. Hn. Niall(Dumfries) | Tweedsmuir, Lady |
| Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. M. | Maddan, Martin | van Straubenzee, W. R. |
| Drayson, G. B. | Maginnis, John E. | Vane, W. M. F. |
| Duncan, sir James | Maitland, Sir John | Wakefield, Sir Wavell |
| Eden, John | Markham, Major Sir Frank | Walder, David |
| Elliott,R.W. (Newc'tle-upon-Tyne,N.) | Matthews, Gordon (Meriden) | Walker, Peter |
| Emmet, Hon. Mrs. Evelyn | Mawby, Ray | Wall, Patrick |
| Farr, John | Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. | Ward, Dame Irene |
| Finlay, Graeme | Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C. | Wells, John (Maidstone) |
| Fisher, Nigel | Mills, Stratton | Whitelaw, William |
| Foster, John | Miscampbell, Norman | Williams, Dudley (Exeter) |
| Fraser, Ian (Plymouth, Sutton) | Montgomery, Fergus | Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater) |
| Gammans, Lady | Morrison, John | Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro) |
| George, Sir John (Pollok) | Nabarro, Sir Gerald | Woodnutt, Mark |
| Gibson-Watt, David | Neave, Airey | Woollam, John |
| Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife) | Nicholls, Sir Harmar | Worsley, Marcus |
| Glyn, Sir Richard (Dorset, N.) | Nugent, Rt. Hon. Sir Richard | |
| Gower, Raymond | Oakshott, Sir Hendrie | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Green, Alan | Osborne, Sir Cyril (Louth) | Mr. Chichester-Clark and |
| Gresham Cooke, R. | Page, Graham (Crosby) | Mr. McLaren. |
| Gurden, Harold | Pannell, Norman (Kirkdale) |
-
cc351-3
- New Clause.—(ADJUSTMENT OF WEIGHTED POPULATION IN RESPECT OF UNEMPLOYED.) 1,367 words, 1 division cc353-4
- Schedule 3.—(REPEAL OF ENACTMENTS.) 74 words cc355-6
- New Clause.—(APPLICATION OF PAYMENTS MADE TO COUNTY COUNCILS UNDER PART V OF ACT OF 1948.) 515 words c356
- Clause 3.—(REDUCTION OF EXCHEQUER EQUALISATION GRANTS IN RESPECT OF LOW RENT INCOME.) 11 words cc356-7
- Clause 8.—(WEIGHTED POPULATION FOR PURPOSES OF GENERAL GRANTS.) 424 words cc357-8
- Clause 9.—(MEANING OF PRODUCT OF A RATE OF ONE PENNY IN THE POUND AND STANDARD PENNY RATE PRODUCT.) 196 words cc358-61
- Clause 12.—(BASIC RATEABLE VALUATION OF GAS BOARDS.) 1,213 words c361
- Clause 13.—(VALUATION BY FORMULA OF CERTAIN LANDS AND HERITAGES.) 20 words cc361-3
- Clause 14.—(PROVISIONS RELATING TO AGRICULTURAL LANDS AND HERITAGES.) 830 words cc363-8
- Clause 15.—(PROCEEDINGS IN APPEALS.) 1,984 words c369
- Clause 19.—(REPAYMENT OF RATES PAID IN ERROR.) 145 words cc369-76
- Clause 21.—(AMENDMENT OF SECTIONS 199 AND 200 OF ACT OF 1947.) 2,694 words c376
- FORT WILLIAM PULP AND PAPER MILLS [MONEY] 176 words cc377-86
- TEACHERS (TRAINING GRANTS) 3,560 words