HC Deb 02 April 1963 vol 675 cc225-7
13. Mr. M. Stewart

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs whether he will introduce legislation to enable local authorities to amend or abolish rent rebate schemes, if this is the wish of their citizens, without risk surcharge on councillors.

Sir K. Joseph

No, Sir. The risk of surcharge does not arise from abolition of the scheme as such but from reducing the rents of council tenants, at the expense of the ratepayers, without financial justification.

Mr. Stewart

Does the Minister agree that the question whether there is financial justification or not is an arguable question, one of opinion, and that it is riot really suitable for investigation by the district auditor or the courts? What is in issue is the fair distribution of the cost of housing between council tenants and the whole body of citizens. Ought we not to create a situation in which the whole body of citizens can declare what they think is right and their view of the matter be put into effect?

Sir K. Joseph

Let us be clear about this. The Housing Act, 1957, requires local authorities to review their rents from time to time and make such changes, either of rents generally or of particular rents and rebates, if any, as circumstances may require. The courts have construed that obligation as a duty on authorities to hold the balance between ratepayers and council tenants. A surcharge might therefore be made if a council so amended its scheme that rents, apparently well within the means of tenants—in that they had been paying them for some time without difficulty—were reduced and a consequent deficit in the housing account had to be made up from the rates. It might then be the duty of the district auditor to make a surcharge, from which there would be the normal means of appeal.

Mr. Stewart

The Minister says, "rents apparently well within the means of tenants". Apparently to whom? If a rent rebate scheme with certain scales of rents for tenants has been in force and is very heatedly discussed at a municipal election and a group of councillors are returned to power mainly because the citizens as a whole want those rents reduced, ought not the Minister then to have the power to reduce them and not be prevented from so doing against the wish of the citizens who have elected it by the action—

Sir G. Nabarro

On a point of order. Mr. Speaker, has a Private Member no protection against the inordinate loquacity of the Labour Front Bench?

Mr. Stewart

Further to that point of order.

Mr. Speaker

I do not think that it was a point of order. What happens is that everybody knows that it is a good thing to have short supplementary questions. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] Everybody knows that any effort to shorten them on an inquiry of that kind usually takes up still more time.

Sir K. Joseph

The fact is that a Statute does sometimes lay on authorities, as in this case, a duty to carry out action in a way that has to be judged by an outside person, in this case the district auditor.