§ Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Finlay.]
§ 11.23 p.m.
§ Mr. T. W. Jones (Merioneth)I am glad of this opportunity to bring before the House and to the notice of the Minister a menacing industrial and economic situation which is rapidly developing in the area of Blaenau Ffestiniog. This area has been scheduled as a development district under the Local Employment Act, 1960, and as such it commands the attention of the Board of Trade and of the Minister in particular. Before I deal with the industrial outlook of Blaenau Ffestiniog, however, I feel constrained to digress a little and to give to the Minister a brief account of the social significance of the town.
Blaenau Ffestiniog has a proud social, educational and cultural history It is one of the best examples of a truly Welsh town that we have in the Principality today. Welsh is the habitual 364 language in the homes, on the streets, at work and in worship. Today, when such strenuous efforts are being made in the Principality to preserve our native tongue—and these efforts, I understand, are fully backed by the Minister for Welsh Affairs—I maintain that this fact alone should spur the Government to do something for this town to keep the community intact.
The first essential is, of course, to provide work there for the people to remain in the town and prevent emigration. If any town in Wales has suffered more than any other from the curse of depopulation, it is this one. The population has been reduced from over 11,000 at the beginning of the century to 6,677. The town was built on the slate quarry industry, and with the progressive decline of that industry in the town the Population was correspondingly reduced. That has always been the tragedy of all communities that have depended on one industry and one only.
The migration of the 1931–1951 period was as high as 19.7 per cent. and by tar the greatest of any urban district in the whole of Mid-Wales. In respect of the employed population, there were, in 1951, when I first came to the House, 1,000 fewer employed there than 20 years earlier. In 1956 the town presented every evidence of a depressed area. Shops were being shut down even in the main streets, and businesses of various kinds were closing. The boarded shop windows gave the hint of pending dereliction. It was there to be seen.
Fortunately, just as the dark gloom was descending, and all hope was being abandoned, the Central Electricity Authority decided on its pump storage scheme in the town. This miraculously saved the situation. I need hardly point out that the scheme was not introduced in order to solve the local unemployment problem but in order to assist the Authority and the Ministry of Power to provide electricity service for the whole nation, both in England and in Wales.
In this respect, I believe that the Government owe a debt of gratitude to the people of the town for the manner in which they met the request of the Authority for the rights and facilities to proceed with the scheme. The Authority received the full backing of the urban district council. On that score alone, 365 having come to the aid of the Ministry of Power in its hour of need, this town deserves the special attention of the Government. I claim this on the principle that one good turn deserves another.
The pump storage scheme will be practically completed by the end of the year. In any case, the labour force will be reduced by 85 per cent. by then. The urban district council could foresee the completion of the scheme and, to its credit, took practical steps to ensure that the necessary facilities far industrial development were available in the area. Here was a council prepared to try, before asking others to help, to help itself. It considered three sites for industrial development. The Government cannot therefore say that they have not had ample notice of the situation that will inevitably arise in this district at the end of construction work on the storage scheme.
The Minister cannot be expected to know everything. I fully agree; but who advises him, who stands at his elbow and prompts him? Whoever it is, he does not appear to have any sympathy for or appreciation of the situation in Blaenau. I am very disturbed and am beginning to doubt the competence of the Minister's advisers. I am very sorry to have to say this, but I must warn the Minister that public opinion in Merioneth will not stand for this kind of treatment. If we cannot ventilate the matter here—this is not a threat; it is a warning—I want to tell the Minister now that I am going to add oil to the flames of indignation which one finds in North Wales on this question. I shall have to find out by word of mouth and by my pen whether these people are truly advised by their principal officers who are in Cardiff at the present time.
There is an advance factory for Holyhead and an advance factory for Portmadoc, but nothing for Blaenau Ffestiniog. The Minister's predecessor, on two occasions, and the civil servants in Cardiff have been told of the problem and what the council is prepared to do. No council could offer more than this council did, and yet nothing is done, nothing whatsoever.
One of the sites I refer to is 12 acres in area, ideally situated for industrial 366 purposes. It is well served by water and electricity services, respectively. Here, indeed, was an ideal site on which to establish the advance factory which some time ago was promised for North Wales. Instead, that advance factory went to Portmadoc.
Let me say at once that the people of Merioneth are not jealous of the people of the neighbouring county. Indeed, we are magnanimous enough to congratulate Portmadoc on its good fortune. Let me say quite frankly, however, that a feeling of sore disappointment was felt at Blaenau Ffestiniog that the Minister had left us high and dry, without a promise of any sort. The feeling of disappointment could have been mitigated had the Minister made one of two promises which it was within his power to make. First, he could have stated that the next advance factory for North Wales would be built in Blaenau Ffestiniog. That would have mitigated the blow somewhat, as we could still have lived in hope.
An advance factory is not the only possibility. The Board of Trade solved the problem in North Caernarvonshire by offering facilities and, at the same time, persuading the Ferodo company to establish itself there. I ask the Minister tonight, could not the same procedure be adopted in relation to Blaenau Ffestiniog? I think I am entitled to know tonight when the Minister replies what efforts he has so far made to deal with the situation at Blaenau and what he proposes to do in the future.
I should be grateful to him if he could indicate quite specifically what are the prospects for an advance factory or for any other type of factory being established there under the guidance of his Ministry. I remind the Minister that seven miles from the town of Ffestiniog is a nuclear power station which is in the course of construction. As he knows, there are excellent buildings attached to the labour camp which was established there for the construction work. Are those buildings to become derelict and be demolished, or has the Board of Trade taken steps to ensure that when those buildings are no longer needed, having been built at great expense, they can be used by any prospective industrialist from England or from Wales immediately they are vacated? I 367 think that I am entitled to know the answer to that question tonight.
I think that I can anticipate part of the hon. Gentleman's reply—although I hope that I am wrong. He will probably tell me that the advance factory at Portmadoc is also to serve the Blaenau Ffestiniog area. Such a proposition in 1962 is not good enough. As the workers get tired of travelling that long distance day in and day out, it will tend to encourage once again the process of depopulation. Sixty years ago, the only section of industry which was mobile was the workers, but in 1962 that is not so. All industrial equipment today is mobile and it is our duty to bring work to the workers and not the workers to the work.
In this contention I am supported by a leading article in last Sunday's Sunday Express. The Minister will see that I am not particular about where I get my assistance, so long as I am assisted. The leading article said:
Well, what are you doing to help such fine men, Mr. Macmillan? It is no use saying that they should uproot their families from home and school in order to take work in London or Birmingham. Already the booming towns of the South-East and the Midlands are bursting at the seams. Clearly, we must bring work to the workless.That is also my plea tonight. Great minds think alike, they say, and I am in full agreement with the editor of the Sunday Express. I want the Minister to say what steps he is taking in order to bring work to the workers of Blaenau Ffestiniog and not to compel the workers to seek work elsewhere.I also hope that he will not tell me that there are vacancies in the local slate quarries. That would make me sick. The only vacancies are for skilled rock men, a most difficult job. If he has ever seen men suffering from silicosis—and I can introduce him to scores in the area—he will appreciate immediately why these people are reluctant to return to the slate quarry industry. I can assure him that there is no hope in that direction.
§ 11.38 p.m.
§ The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade (Mr. David Price)There is no doubt that if charm could get industry to a town, Blaenau Ffestiniog would be suffering from too much industry. I should like at the outset to 368 thank the hon. Member for Merioneth (Mr. T. W. Jones) for his extreme courtesy in letting me know before the debate the points which he intended to raise. This is a most useful courtesy in Adjournment debates as it enables a Minister to reply to specific points which an hon. Member raises. All too frequently the Minister has to guess what they will be and he may not have the replies on particular points. I want the hon. Member to know how much I appreciate his courtesy.
I take it as an example of the "real Welsh way of life", a phrase used by the hon. Member when he spoke so eloquently in our debate on Welsh affairs on 2nd August, this year. The hon. Gentleman spoke movingly about the depopulation which has taken place in Blaenau Ffestiniog over the last 60 years, and I would be a very soulless person if I were not to some degree moved by his arguments, but equally I must be frank with him. Our first priority at the Board of Trade must be to persuade —and I emphasise "persuade" we cannot direct—industries to expand in areas of high and persistent unemployment on the basis of their current population. I think the hon. Gentleman will agree that men actually unemployed must have priority over men who have already left an area because the employment prospects in the past were better elsewhere. This does not mean that we are unmindful of persistent depopulation of the nature referred to by the hon. Gentleman. It is simply a question of priorities in emphasis.
In fact, Blaenau Ffestiniog is a development district and therefore the full range of assistance is available to any firm which is minded to go there, or which we can persuade to go there. Although I am glad to say that unemployment in Blaenau Ffestiniog is not as bad as in certain other areas in the Kingdom, nevertheless, because of doubts about the future, it was designated a development district and therefore the hon. Gentleman will see that it has equal priority with all the other development districts.
However, the facts of geography make it hard to persuade industrialists that Blaenau Ffestiniog is a suitable place to expand. Possibly the excellent credentials given to Blaenau Ffestiniog by 369 the hon. Gentleman tonight may convince some industrialists that their future lies there rather than elsewhere.
At present, I think we have to recognise that a large industry, or a large industrial development of the type that we have pursuaded to go to Bathgate in Scotland, would be unlikely to consider locating itself in Blaenau Ffestiniog because its labour demands could not be met by local resources. At present in this area there is an insured population of about 4,500. There are only 116 men and 32 women unemployed. However, in our view, and here we agree entirely with the hon. Gentleman, it would be a suitable location for a small industry, and I think that that is what we are talking about tonight.
I should like to reassure the hon. Gentleman that our officials in Cardiff lose no opportunity to bring Blaenau Ffestiniog to the notice of suitable industrialists, but although some firms have visited the area, unfortunately no industry has decided to settle there. I will be very frank with the hon. Gentleman. Geography seems to have been the main reason for our lack of success. When we take firms to see these areas, they do not always tell us why they decide not to go to a certain place, and we, in our official capacity, have to try as best we can to discover the reason. We do not necessarily get the real reason. Often the reason they give is a public reason, which may not be the real one. But it seems to us that of the many factors which might have made them decide not to go there, geography is the biggest obstacle.
I should like to take this opportunity to congratulate the hon. Gentleman's council on its foresight in allocating land for use as industrial sites.
Looking into the future—and I think that this is important—I am aware that there are still about 2,000 people employed on the construction of the nuclear power station at Trawsfynydd and another 500 on the Tanygrisiau pumped storage scheme to which the hon. Gentleman made reference, and on the Treweryn Valley reservoir, and I know that this employment will eventually cease to be available, certainly for the construction workers. I understand that 370 the completion of the nuclear power station is expected, on current form, in 1964, and whilst some permanent employment will be available at the power station, it will not be anything like on the scale of those engaged on the construction work. A large proportion of the people employed on the construction are not from Blaenau Ffestiniog, and I understand that a considerable number of them are likely to find new jobs on the construction of the new Wylfa power station in Anglesey. I realise that this is not within daily travelling distance of Blaenau Ffestiniog, and therefore its people working on the construction site are not directly helped by a move of the whole team to Anglesey, except that it may be some consolation that such people, working away from home, can get home at the weekend. That is some marginal consolation.
It follows that over the next five years there is a risk of an increase in unemployment in Blaenau Ffestiniog. This is why the area was placed on the list of development districts under the Local Employment Act, in April, 1960, although unemployment rates there have been below 3 per cent. since the beginning of 1961. The House will know that this is a lower rate than normally qualifies a district for development district treatment. If it were not for this consideration the district would not have been listed. This shows that we are trying to plan ahead. We want to try to ensure that it will never be necessary for the unemployment rate to rise to the sort of level which normally makes a district eligible for listing as a development district. I could quote other cases, in other parts of the Kingdom, where a district has been scheduled as a development district in anticipation of loss of employment opportunities. If the development district treatment is successful this district will never have the sort of unemployment levels which exist in other parts of the country, where there has been persistent unemployment over a much longer period.
Apart from this temporary construction work Blaenau Ffestiniog is heavily dependent on employment in the slate industry, and I am sorry to learn that the Votty and Bowydd quarry closed last month, although I understand that most of the workers have accepted the transfer offered to another quarry in the area. 371 I am told that the closure was due to a shortage of men to produce sufficient output to carry the expense of running the mine. We must accept that slate has been a declining industry, but there will be a need for Welsh slate for many years to come, for maintenance as well as for new building, and the figures we have been able to get—and I admit that there is a great margin of doubt about this—suggest that the Welsh slate industry will continue at about its present level of output and, therefore, of employment.
The main burden of the hon. Member's speech concerned the disappointment felt locally that we did not decide to site an advance factory in Blaenau Ffestiniog. Indeed, the hon. Member anticipated us in the debate on 2nd August, when he put a very good case for choosing Blaenau Ffestiniog for the site of an advance factory. We knew that local interests were anxious for a factory there, and I can assure the hon. Member that we took the claims of the town fully into account in considering possible sites when we decided to build in North Wales. But we came to the conclusion that the best centre would be Portmadoc, since employment there should be of assistance to workers both from the Lleyn peninsula and from Blaenau. I realise that a daily journey to Portmadoc from Blaenau is not very convenient, and that it takes rather a long time, but I understand that it is nevertheless possible, and it was our view that a factory at Portmadoc would cover a wider catchment area than one at Blaenau.
The hon. Member asked me the straight question: what are the prospects for an advance factory at Blaenau Ffestiniog? I will give him a straight answer. As we have no further programme of advance factories in mind at the present time it would be wrong of me to suggest that there is another advance factory in the offing for North Wales which would be located at Blaenau. I say "at the present time". I do not like to entertain hopes in hon. Members' minds that I cannot honour. However, if any firm wished for a permanent factory to be built in Blaenau Ffestiniog, tailor-made to its particular form of production, we would in all probability be able to build it for the firm. I say to the hon. Member for 372 Merioneth and anyone else interested in Blaenau Ffestiniog, "Find the firm and we will put up the factory for them".
The hon. Member referred to the Ferodo factory near Caernarvon and asked why assistance could not be given to a firm to go to Blaenau. As I have just indicated, if any firm would like to consider setting up a new factory on one of the sites available at Blaenau and asks us for assistance under the Local Employment Act, either by way of a loan or by way of a building grant, or by the provision of a Board of Trade factory tailor-made to its needs, we shall give such an application very careful and sympathetic consideration. I cannot give an absolute blanket assurance, but I am giving a pretty wide assurance. The hon. Member is, of course, aware that applications for financial assistance, as distinct from the building of Board of Trade factories for a specific client, must under the terms of the Act be referred to the Board of Trade Advisory Committee, but building a Board of Trade factory does not require that procedure and it is within our powers to do it, as we did in the case of Ferodo at Caernarvon.
The hon. Member mentioned the buildings at the construction camps for the nuclear power station and suggested that these were suitable for industrial use. I cannot go into that because I am advised that they are in the Snowdonia National Park and must come down when the power station has been built under the general planning arrangements which were made before planning permission was given for the power station to be erected. When we get into amenity arguments it is not for me, a humble Board of Trade Minister, to say whether these arrangements should be revoked. All is possible in this world, but it would be wrong for me to get involved in that. Perhaps the hon. Members interested would like to solve the problem among themselves. It is a thorny problem for someone who is not a North Welshman, and I have enough Celtic blood to know when something is beyond my competence. If these buildings become available the Board of Trade will always look at the matter again.
I realise that I have offered the hon. Member for Merioneth little hard news 373 tonight. I repeat that Blaenau Ffestiniog is a development district and therefore ranks equal with every other development district. In the eyes of the Board of Trade all development districts are equal, but geography, prejudice and the particular requirements of individual firms make some development districts less equal in the sight of potential developers than others. Up to now this 374 has been the problem of Blaenau Ffestiniog, but I hope—
§ The Question having been proposed after Ten o'clock and the debate having continued for half an hour, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
§ Adjourned at seven minutes to Twelve o'clock.