§ Q3. Mr. Mayhewasked the Prime Minister what reports he has now received from his scientific advisers on methods of verifying nuclear tests by sealed instruments.
§ The Prime MinisterI assume that the hon. Member is referring to the 1400 so-called black box proposals put forward by three American and three Soviet scientists who attended the 1962 Pugwash Conference.
Although I am advised that these proposals have a number of limitations, any idea that may reduce the gap between the Soviet Union and the West deserves careful consideration. It may be that these sealed instruments would reduce the number of unidentified seismic events in the Soviet Union, but they would not in themselves dispose of the need for verification.
§ Mr. MayhewIs it not clear from what the Prime Minister has just said that if the Russians want a nuclear test agreement these black boxes can overcome some of their objections without in practice weakening the safeguards needed by the West? In these circumstances, is it not an important and urgent matter to look into the technical side of this black box proposal? Will the right hon. Gentleman, therefore, answer the question as to what advice he has received from his scientists about it and what information he has received from the United States scientists about this idea?
§ The Prime MinisterI do not want to delay matters, but I could give a full account of the technical considerations. I will try to summarise it if the hon. Gentleman wishes. A very large number of instruments would be required to make any real impact on these problems. They would, of course, present certain problems in respect of servicing and replacing them. That might, in a sense, complicate rather than simplify the process of detection and identification, merely because of the large numbers of sealed instruments involved and the large number of people who would be required to deal with them. There is also the quite difficult problem which can perhaps properly be summed up by what is generally called in technical jargon the question of how to deal with the problem of "spoofing", which means interfering with the operation of the instruments. All these are important questions which are being studied urgently by the American and British scientists. As I have said, we are anxious to get on. However, I can say that, if this instrument can play a 1401 rôle in bringing us any nearer to an agreement, I can assure the hon. Gentleman that we shall be only too anxious to make use of it.
§ Mr. GrimondWhen the Prime Minister speaks of verification, does he mean that even if a satisfactory method of verifying nuclear tests by sealed instruments were found, in the view of Her Majesty's Government we should still have to have facilities for on-site inspection in the U.S.S.R.?
§ The Prime MinisterThat is the present view, certainly.
§ Q6. Mr. Zilliacusasked the Prime Minister whether it is still Her Majesty's Government's policy, as stated by him in the House on 5th March, 1957, to make and test nuclear weapons in order that Great Britain should not be in a weaker position than the United States of America or the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics; and if he will make a statement.
§ The Prime MinisterThe tests of nuclear weapons to which I was referring in 1957 enabled us to develop thermo-nuclear weapons and so to maintain our position relative to the two major nuclear powers. Our reasons for continuing to make and test nuclear weapons at the present time were fully explained by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence in the debate on 19th November.
§ Mr. ZilliacusDoes the Prime Minister recollect that on 5th March, 1957, he was asked by my right hon. Friend the Member for Derby, South (Mr. P. Noel-Baker) whether he would not suspend tests pending the outcome of discussions then going on about a test ban treaty, and he replied:
No, Sir. I should have thought it common sense to put ourselves in the position that we have been working for so long to attain, that we should not be in a weaker position than those other two great Powers."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 5th March, 1957; Vol. 566, c. 181.]How far does the Prime Minister think he has advanced towards achieving that improvement since 1957, and in what way does he think the coming test will contribute to its realisation?
§ The Prime MinisterWe have maintained our relative position.