§ 9. Mr. Allaunasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs how many improvement grants for installing baths, hot water systems and inside lavatories were made in each of the first three quarters of 1962; and how many of these were made to private landlords, owner-occupiers and local authorities.
§ Sir K. JosephI would refer the hon. Member to the relevant tables in the Housing Return which is published quarterly. These give as much of the information asked for as is available to me from the returns made by the local authorities.
§ Mr. AllaunI thought that the Minister might have told us what it was, but does not the right hon. Gentleman's recent circular encourage local authorities to use compulsory purchase orders, 179 which is an admission that compulsion is the only way to make the landlords, or most landlords, apply for grant? Is not that policy exactly contrary to what the Government have previously said?
§ Sir K. JosephNo. The hon. Gentleman has perhaps failed to notice that in a recent speech in this House I said that persuasion was the proper policy for the Government up to now, and now, but that maybe we shall have to consider whether some pressure upon both landlords and tenants may not be necessary one day.
§ Mr. AllaunIf the Minister has further measures in mind beyond his recent circular, as I hope he has, will he bear in mind the proposals of the public health inspectors for giving to local authorities themselves the power to install baths in the landlords' houses?
§ Sir K. JosephI told the House that I was studying all these matters.
§ Mr. CallaghanIn view of the Minister's astonishing statement that landlords should have some regard to tenants' means, does the right hon. Gentleman say that, in addition to any increase of rent arising out of that position, the landlords should see how well dressed tenants are, or what furniture they have—or how are they to be judged?
§ Mr. SpeakerThat supplementary question does not appear to arise out of this Question.
§ Mr. CallaghanIf it does not arise out of this Question, may I ask the Minister if he proposes——
§ Mr. SpeakerIf it does not arise out of the Question it is out of order as a supplementary question.
§ Mr. CallaghanThis is not out of order——
§ Mr. CallaghanI am entitled to make a submission to Mr. Speaker and I shall do so, and hon. Gentlemen opposite will not put me off. What I want to put to you, Mr. Speaker, is that arising out of the improvement grants there will be increases in rent. [Interruption.] It follows that if a landlord gets an improvement grant the rent goes up. If the Minister 180 proposes to make an early statement to us about how he intends to assess, and how landlords are supposed to assess, increases of rent based on tenants' means, is it not possible for him to say what are to be the criteria in his judgment?
§ Mr. SpeakerI am unable to accept the hon. Gentleman's argument. I am afraid that I do not agree with it.