HC Deb 12 November 1962 vol 667 cc1-12
1. Mr. Hector Hughes

asked the Lord Privy Seal if he will make a statement on the steps he has taken and proposes to take in the Common Market negotiations to protect the various aspects of the British fishing industry, with particular regard to the catching and marketing of fish and the purchase of fishing gear and what reply he has sent to the recent representations made to him by the British Trawlers Federation Ltd. on these aspects of the fishing industry.

The Lord Privy Seal (Mr. Edward Heath)

The European Economic Community has not yet begun to consider the common fisheries policy. The question has therefore not arisen in the Brussels negotiations. The Government are fully aware of the interests of the British fishing industry in the eventual common fisheries policy, and they will have those interests in mind when the time comes for discussion with the Community.

Mr. Hughes

Does the Lord Privy Seal remember the answer he gave recently to the effect that the International Council for the Exploration of the Sea and the Permanent Commission set up under the 1946 Act would find a means to protect and develop British fishing grounds, which are in a bad way? Notwithstanding that—and in contradiction to it—the £800,000 research vessel "Discovery", built in Aberdeen, is to be sent, apparently, under the right hon. Gentleman's auspices, with a fleet of foreign ships to explore the Indian Ocean, when there is plenty of scope for exploration in the Northern Hemisphere, for the benefit of the British fishing industry. What has the right hon. Gentleman to say about that, and will he countermand the disgraceful order to send this ship to the Indian Ocean?

Mr. Heath

Those are entirely separate questions from that which the hon. and learned Member has asked, namely, the question of a common fisheries policy in the European Economic Community. Now that the hon. and learned Member has raised those points, I will see that he gets an answer to them.

Mr. G. R. Howard

In view of the arrangement already made with the E.F.T.A. countries, and also the very great importance to our own fishing industry of these discussions, will my right hon. Friend have the fullest consultations with the British Trawlers Federation and other bodies connected with the industry?

Mr. Heath

Yes, Sir. I can give that assurance completely. We are already in the closest touch with them.

6. Mr. Stonehouse

asked the Lord Privy Seal, in view of Her Majesty's Government's undertaking to safeguard the interests of the European Free Trade Area countries before agreeing to Great Britain's entry to the Common Market, if he will insist that the problems of the European Free Trade Area countries' entry or association be considered by the Six before Great Britain's application is finalised.

Mr. Heath

The timing of the negotiations between a member of the European Free Trade Association and the European Economic Community is a matter for mutual arrangement between them.

Mr. Stonehouse

Is not the Minister aware that that is a completely unsatisfactory reply? We are asking for an assurance that negotiations for Britain's entry into the E.E.C. will not be finalised until Britain knows that her partners in E.F.T.A. have had satisfactory arrangements made for them. Will the Minister please answer the Question and give an assurance that Britain's entry will not be finalised until her partners have their agreements fixed?

Mr. Heath

Several times in the debate last week I gave the full undertakings of Her Majesty's Government that we adhere to the London Declaration and to the Geneva Communiqué. I summarised the three undertakings and, in answer to the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond), I read out the undertaking from the London Declaration. To those Her Majesty's Government fully adhere.

Mr. Gordon Walker

If the Government adhere to those pledges, one of which is that we should come in to the Market simultaneously, if our partners have their interests properly safeguarded, why cannot the Minister simply say "Yes" in answer to this Question? How can we come in simultaneously unless negotiations with other members of the Six are complete?

Mr. Heath

The undertaking is that they all come into effect on the same date. I do not know exactly what the hon. Member for Wednesbury (Mr. Stonehouse) means by the application not being finalised. I do not know whether he means the conclusion of the application in Brussels—there are other stages which have to follow—or whether he means the ratification, or whether he means the coming into effect on the same day. But the undertaking to the E.F.T.A. countries, the third part, is that this must come into effect at the same time.

Mr. Shinwell

Is not the right hon. Gentleman gravely concerned at the letter from Lord Boothby in The Times today in which he indicates that he is withdrawing his influential support from the Government's entry into the Common Market?

Mr. Heath

I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman himself will wish to pay attention and give full weight to the conclusion of the noble Lord.

Mr. Speaker

Mr. Henderson.

Mr. Stonehouse

Arising out of that answer by the Minister, may I ask him whether—

Mr. Speaker

Order. The next Question has been called.

10. Mr. Frank Allaun

asked the Lord Privy Seal to what extent an independent European nuclear striking force has been discussed during his discussions of Great Britain's entry into the Common Market.

Mr. Heath

Not at all.

Mr. Allaun

Has the attention of the right hon. Gentleman been drawn to the statement by the United States Senate Foreign Relations Committee that an enlarged Common Market would almost certainly start such a nuclear force, and also to the report by the New York Times London correspondent that the British Government are now taking such a course? Will the right hon. Gentleman undertake that Britain will adhere to its previous policy of refusing to give, directly or indirectly, nuclear weapons to West Germany in exchange for Britain's admission to the Common Market?

Mr. Heath

That is not Her Majesty's Government's policy. Neither is there any truth in the rumours to which the hon. Member has referred.

21. Viscount Lambton

asked the Lord Privy Seal if Her Majesty's Government will produce a White Paper illustrating the economic advantages and disadvantages that would result from the entry of the United Kingdom into the European Economic Union.

Mr. Heath

The advantages and disadvantages have frequently been stated by Ministers in speeches, both in Parliament and in the country. The balance between them will depend on the extent to which British agriculture and industry take advantage of the opportunities offered them. This is a matter of judgment which is not appropriate for a White Paper.

Viscount Lambton

Will my right hon. Friend say if he has seen such a balance-sheet?

Mr. Heath

I pointed out to my hon. Friend that this is a matter of judgment about advantages and disadvantages. We have, of course, from time to time been given estimates by particular British industries of what they think the future might be in certain circumstances, and the whole of these have been weighed up in the Government's policy.

Viscount Lambton

Am I to understand that my right hon. Friend says that there has been no balance-sheet made out with any sticking points beyond which Her Majesty's Government are not prepared to go?

Mr. Heath

No, my hon. Friend is not entitled to draw that conclusion in any way whatever.

Viscount Lambton

Will my right hon. Friend publish a balance-sheet?

Mr. Heath

I have explained to my hon. Friend why any form of judgment on this matter is not appropriate to a White Paper.

Mr. Speaker

I should have made it plain to the noble Viscount that I was calling him to ask Question No. 22.

22. Viscount Lambton

asked the Lord Privy Seal if official translations will be made at once available in the House of all the publications of the Common Market Commission.

Mr. Heath

We have made available translations of the Treaty and the various other documents issued by the institutions of the Community which will be binding on this country, unless other arrangements are negotiated, if we join the European Economic Community. We shall continue to do this as further documents of this kind are published.

Viscount Lambton

While thanking my right hon. Friend fox his reply, may I ask him if he will extend it to publication of the Treaty of Rome?

Mr. Heath

The position at the moment is that English is not one of the official languages of the Community. Therefore, the documents—the Treaty of Rome, the Treaty of Paris and the Euratom Treaty—are not published by the Community in English. It therefore falls to us to produce our own translations of all these documents. That we have done, including the Treaty of Rome, and these are available in the Vote Office. We will continue to do this while the negotiations are going on.

Viscount Lambton

Does my right hon. Friend agree that this puts us to a slight disadvantage if we are to read documents which are not the official wording? How are we to understand if something is not, in any sense, official?

Mr. Heath

There is no alternative until we become—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]—unless——

Mr. Manuel

Are we in?

Mr. Heath

—if we become a member of the Community. Then, English would be an official language, and there would be official translations, but while the negotiations are going on there is no alternative to providing the translations ourselves. These are done, to the best of our ability, from official documents, and there is no other alternative.

Mr. Gaitskell

Is it not very difficult, in the course of negotiations, if we have an English translation of the text of the Treaty of Rome and these documents and we are not sure whether it is acceptable as a translation to the members of the Governments of the Six with whom he is negotiating? Is it not necessary, in order that he can negotiate, that there should be a certain official interpretation of what his officials try to do?

Mr. Heath

It is not necessary, from the negotiations point of view, because we can use the official text of the Treaties in their official languages. It is, I fully accept, most desirable for Members of Parliament of both Houses to have it. Naturally, in producing our own translations, we have kept in the very closest touch in Brussels with the institutions of the Community.

23. Mr. Ridley

asked the Lord Privy Seal what progress he has made in his negotiations with the European Economic Community with regard to horticulture.

Mr. Heath

A working party has considered the problems of British horticulture and Ministers had a preliminary discussion in July. There have as yet been no further developments.

Mr. Ridley

Does not my right hon. Friend think it rather strange that there should be anxiety about the Common Market proposals for horticulture, in this country, in the Common Market countries and in the Commonwealth? Will he not take the initiative and ask for the whole question to be reconsidered again, and put forward some new proposals dealing with this matter of the future of horticulture in the Common Market?

Mr. Heath

We shall be considering this again at Ministerial level, and, I imagine, in the comparatively near future. We believe that the proposals we have put forward provide a basis for negotiations, and we have no need to make new proposals.

Mr. Peart

Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that the Horticultural Council does not now exist, which is rather unfortunate, and therefore inevitably the transitional period is a vital element in negotiations? Will he be quite firm about this?

Mr. Heath

Yes, Sir.

24. Mr. Stonehouse

asked the Lord Privy Seal whether Her Majesty's Government accept the proposals of the European Economic Community Commission with regard to a common currency for the Common Market.

Mr. Heath

The European Commission recently published an Action Programme which contains, among other things, the Commission's own ideas for establishing during the second stage of the transitional period the institutions necessary within the Community to coordinate national monetary policies. It does not, however, propose a common currency. I understand that the member Governments of the Community, with whom decisions lie, did not participate in the preparation of the Action Programme and that they, like us, are now studying it.

Mr. Stonehouse

Is the Minister aware that in a report which appeared in the Financial Times, M. Marjolin was quoted as saying that even if separate members of the E.E.C. printed their own bank notes it would not count for much, and that he regarded this proposal as a step towards political integration? Surely the Minister must have some reaction? Will he accept it or not?

Mr. Heath

At the Press conference, M. Marjolin, as I understand it, was projecting his own thoughts beyond the stage of the Commission's proposals in the Action Programme which I have just described. This programme is a very considerable work, and the hon. Gentleman cannot expect the Government to give their reactions to it only a few days after it has been published. It is now to be studied by the member Governments of the Community, and they will have to decide how it is dealt with.

Mr. Gordon Walker

Could we have an English version of this document as soon as possible?

Mr. Heath

Yes, Sir. We will endeavour to provide an English version of the document as soon as possible, but I must point out that this is a very substantial document.

27. Mr. Oram

asked the Lord Privy Seal what studies he is making of rises in food prices in the countries of the European Economic Community consequent upon the coming into effect of the common European agricultural policy; and what proposals he is putting forward in the current negotiations in order to avoid increased food prices in the United Kingdom in the event of its joining the Community.

Mr. Heath

If we join the Community we must expect that there will on the whole be a rise in foodstuff prices, though certain items may be cheaper. Our object in the negotiations is to secure arrangements which will make these changes as gradual as possible.

Mr. Oram

Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware of a recent report that food prices in Holland, particularly milk and bread, have already risen sharply directly as a consequence of the common agricultural policy? Is it not highly important that the housewives and this country should be fully informed of such developments, and should be not take vigorous action, more vigorous than he appears to be taking now, in the negotiations to make sure that the British housewife is protected from any such developments?

Mr. Heath

We have taken vigorous action in the negotiations for making the changes as gradually as possible, because that was what we were discussing at the last Ministerial meeting in Brussels. So far as informing the country on the question of food prices is concerned, in his speech at Brighton the Leader of the Opposition was kind enough to pay a tribute to what I said myself. One also has to take into account the reduction in the prices of industrial goods that would come about through tariff reductions and increased efficiency in the enlarged Community. So far as our own position is concerned, and this is different from the position in Holland, changes in the deficiency payments system will mean that the Exchequer is spared that burden of the subsidy, and that money will become available to the Chancellor of the Exchequer for use as he decides fit.

Mr. P. Williams

Has my right hon. Friend on behalf of the Government drawn up a balance-sheet on this matter, and what is going to be the increase in the cost of food per head per week?

Mr. Heath

It is not possible to draw up any precise arrangement about this, because over the period of the next eight years until 1970 the change will take place in a movement towards a harmonised price in the Common Market at that time. It is not possible here to decide—the Community itself has not decided—what the level of those harmonised prices will be. One might as well ask my hon. Friend whether he is prepared to give a forecast of what is going to happen to prices of food and industrial goods by 1970 if we stay outside the Community. It is obviously quite impossible for him to answer that.

Mr. Speaker

There is a problem about that. We have quite enough questions without Ministers asking questions of hon. Members.

Mr. Jay

But did the Government make any estimate of the probable rise in food prices before they made their application for entry? If so, will the right hon. Gentleman tell us what sort of a rise he expects on the proposals which he is now making in Brussels?

Mr. Heath

I have explained why it is not possible to make a precise estimate of this kind. If one is to give financial estimates to Parliament, they have to be of a precise kind.

28. Mr. Oram

asked the Lord Privy Seal by what process Her Majesty's Government intend to ascertain whether the terms finally negotiated for the adhesion of the United Kingdom to the European Economic Community are satisfactory not only to Parliament but also to the members of the Commonwealth and of the European Free Trade Association.

Mr. Heath

At the meeting of Commonwealth Prime Ministers we undertook to arrange for the closest consultation with other Commonwealth Governments during the remainder of the negotiations. We shall also continue to keep in the closest touch with our partners in the European Free Trade Association.

Mr. Oram

In view of the pledges to the Commonwealth and to E.F.T.A., is it not very important that the consultation should be at the very highest level and in the most specific terms? Since the matter is by no means clear, despite the answer which has just been given, is it not important that the Government should make clearer still just what the procedure will be when the negotiations are concluded?

Mr. Heath

We accepted at the beginning of the negotiations—it was again stated after the Commonwealth Prime Ministers' Conference—that the consultation would be in the forms in which the Commonwealth countries themselves desire it.

As to E.F.T.A., we have frequent E.F.T.A. Ministerial meetings. We had one in Oslo three weeks ago, and we have every opportunity of keeping in the closest touch.

Mr. Stonehouse

Does not our pledge to the E.F.T.A. countries go further than mere consultation? Have not we given them a clear pledge that we will not go into the E.E.C. unless their particular interests are safeguarded? Does not that go beyond consultation? Is not the Minister prepared to get their approval?

Mr. Heath

The hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well what the pledges of the Government are to the E.F.T.A. countries, and what his purpose is in trying to discount the integrity of his own country and his Government I do not understand. That is all that he is, in fact, doing. The Question, as I understood it, was addressed to how this was going to be done at the conclusion of the negotiations. This is a matter which we in the E.F.T.A. Council can arrange at the time.

Mr. Gaitskell

Will the right hon. Gentleman be good enough not to confuse the country with the Government? Is he aware that, while we know the pledge given to E.F.T.A., we are deeply concerned about the interpretation which is being placed by Her Majesty's Government upon that pledge? In that connection, could he clarify the position by answering this question? Will he state firmly that Her Majesty's Government will not make any final commitment themselves on this issue until the E.F.T.A. countries are satisfied that their interests are safeguarded and, so far as they wish to do so, that they will be entering the Common Market on the same date as ourselves?

Mr. Heath

The right hon. Gentleman is constantly asking me to use different forms of words from those to which the E.F.T.A. countries themselves are committed. We agreed at the last Oslo meeting that we all adhere to the London declaration, and Her Majesty's Government adhere to it fully. That was followed by the Geneva Communiqué just before we entered into the negotiations. To both of those we adhere, and to that form of words we adhere exactly. I am not prepared to start putting various interpretations on a declaration which all the E.F.T.A. countries have so recently reaffirmed.

Mr. Healey

May we take it from what the right hon. Gentleman has said about Commonwealth consultation that, if Commonwealth Prime Ministers express a desire for consultation at the Prime Ministerial level, their wish will be acceded to by Her Majesty's Government?

Mr. Heath

Yes, Sir.