HC Deb 31 May 1962 vol 660 cc1568-70
15. Mr. G. Brown

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is aware of the general disquiet among people responsible for the children's services in the London area at the proposal of Her Majesty's Government to fragment the London County Children's Department into 14 small separate authorities; and what representations Her Majesty's Government have received in the matter.

Mr. R. A. Butler

Direct representations about the reorganisation of the child care service in the Greater London area have come mostly from the London County Council and its staff, but I am aware that concern has also been expressed by others. These views have been considered, but the Government adhere to the belief that responsibility for child care is a proper function for for the proposed London boroughs. We recognise that there will be difficult transitional problems, particularly in relation to residential establishments and to the needs of children requiring residential care, and we propose to discuss with the authorities concerned the best way of overcoming these difficulties and of ensuring that the well-being of the children is safeguarded.

Mr. Brown

Is the Secretary of State aware that among those whom he dismisses as others "are some of the most authoritative and impressive people working in this field? Is he further aware that this is an absolutely vital service, quite as vital as the education service, and that his colleague the Minister of Education has been able to make some fresh proposals departing from the Government's original ideas which have made people feel rather happier? I raise this matter, not in order to argue the general issue— we have argued that before, and I do not propose to argue it again— but because we are terribly frightened of what will happen to this service if it is broken up in this way in view of the vast distinctions which there are between boroughs. When the right hon. Gentleman is giving further thought to this matter, will he be willing to see me and some of my hon. Friends to discuss it?

Mr. Butler

I did not mean to dismiss anyone in a derogatory way. We have had a great deal of thought on this matter, which is a very difficult one to decide. I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that it is a vital service, but there is a difference from the arrangement made over the education service, because the child care service is based increasingly on work in the field by the child care officers and we feel that a close association with the personal and environmental health service, with welfare and housing, is desirable. That is why I stated the conclusion which the Government had reached. I have indicated that there are difficult transitional problems, and I will certainly be ready to see the right hon. Gentleman and any of his hon. Friends.

Mr. Brown

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his latter statement. With regard to his earlier remark about field work, has he any idea of the difference, for example, between the proposed new borough of Lambeth and Southwark, an area which I know very well indeed, with 18 out of every 1,000 children in its care, and Hampstead, a borough with a much higher rateable value and no more than 5 out of every 1,000 children in its care? The facilities will not be where the need is, and that is why we want so much to talk to the right hon. Gentleman about this matter.

Mr. Butler

I am aware of the big discrepancies between the boroughs. Nevertheless, the association of the health and welfare services is one to which we attach importance. If the right hon. Gentleman wishes to talk about it, let us do so.

Sir G. Nicholson

The reasons may be good or they may be bad, but is my right hon. Friend aware that many more London children go to residential institutions than are boarded out? Personally, I regret it, but nevertheless that is the position. Anyhow, the result is that London's residential institutions are a model for the country. Will my right hon. Friend take particular care to ensure that they are not broken up in any way?

Mr. Butler

I am aware of the high quality of the service rendered by the London County Council. I have met the Chairman of the Child Care Committee, who was accompanied by other people of great distinction interested in this subject. I am aware of these homes and their importance, and that is why we are having these preliminary discussions.

Mr. Reynolds

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that similar problems arise in Middlesex and that to the best of my knowledge no new borough in Middlesex nor any existing one has expressed any desire to take this job from the county council? Will the right hon. Gentleman look into the position in Middlesex as well?

Mr. Butler

Yes, Sir.