§ 3.35 p.m.
§ Mr. William Hamilton (Fife, West)I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to empower Industrial Estates Management Corporations to establish industries in development districts.At the last General Election, the Conservative Party made a great song and dance about how it would cure the unemployment which its own policies had created. We were told during the course of the election campaign that the Bill to deal with that problem was already drafted. Sure enough, immediately after the election, we got the Measure which is now the Local Employment Act, which has been operative since April, 1960. The purpose of that Act, as was made quite plain by the President of the Board of Trade and other Ministers, was to provide what they called a flexible instrument with which to tackle local pockets of unemployment by providing industry with inducements of one kind and another to go into such areas.The present Secretary of State for the Colonies, who was then President of the Board of Trade, said, during the Third Reading debate:
The real thing that we are concerned about;Is the creation of employment "—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 3rd February 1960;Vol. 616, c. 1179.]Hon. Members should note those words, "the creation of employment".The hon. Member for Sevenoaks (Mr. J. Rodgers), then Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade, said in the same debate that the Bill
…meets the social and human needs of the community and what is perhaps the most important problem a man can face, that of having a livelihood which will give him both security and dignity."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 3rd February, 1960;Vol. 616, c. 1135.]I must add that those sentiments are a very far cry from those expressed by the hon. Member for Poole (Sir Richard Pilkington), who suggested at Question Time the other day that Scotland might be treated as a colony—we might get much more generous treatment if we were—and are also alien to the views of the noble Lord the Member for Dorset, South (Viscount Hinchingbrooke) —the man born with a silver teapot in his mouth—who suggested that young 1164 men in Scotland were unemployed because they were waxing fat on the dole. I suggest that he might pay a visit to the West Lothian by-election in due course and make the same kind of remark.Let us compare the achievement with the promise. In an Answer I received in the House last week it was stated that the number of new jobs created in Scotland in the last five years was 51,200 and that the number of jobs lost in the same period was 85,150. During the two years of the effective operation of the Local Employment Act —and this information was given in the same Answer —we find that 23,250 jobs were lost and 33,500 created, a net gain of 10,250.
I received an Answer yesterday stating that in the first quarter of this year about another 5,000 jobs had been lost. In other words, ignoring yesterday's Answer, we have had a net gain in the two years of the operation of the Local Employment Act in Scotland of 10,250 jobs, or about 5,000 a year.
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour said in Fife a few weeks ago that West Fife alone needed 5,000 new jobs. This is not taking into account the 25,000 people who leave Scotland each year because of the lack of employment opportunities. The Toothill Committee examined this problem and, knowing about the major motor car undertakings that are now coming into effect in Scotland, concluded:
Even with the recent and notable successes in bringing major undertakings to Scotland it is unlikely, unless new and vigorous moves are made, that there will be enough jobs in 1964.My purpose in asking leave to introduce the Bill is to try to make one such move. The Act as it now stands provides that the management corporations are little more than estate managers—no doubt very necessary and worthwhile activities. The aim of the Bill is to extend the powers of the management corporations so far as to enable them to build and own their own factories and to start their own publicly-owned industries. The personnel of these corporations, I think we all agree, are well qualified to do this, for they are highly qualified and responsible men who would not embark on such a scheme unless they thought that it was a sound proposition.1165 I will give a few examples of what might be done. The National Research Development Corporation could be enlarged and reconstructed and could use the management corporations as its agents in setting up productive units and exploiting the fruits of what is, after all, Government-financed research, either in competition with private enterprise, or, if need be, in co-operation with it. My second example concerns the Forestry Commission, again a Government-financed undertaking which is now being profitably established in Scotland, particularly in some areas which are finding it extremely difficult to get alternative industry.
I believe that if the Forestry Commission co-operated with the management corporations to build, own and operate their own small chipboard factories, and so on, in Scotland this would do a great deal to alleviate some of the problems in the extreme North and isolated parts. My third example concerns the National Health Service, again financed entirely by public funds. One of the greatest scandals in the Health Service is the profiteering in drugs which are often marketed after inadequate clinical testing. There is considerable scope here for using the management corporation as the Government's agents for the production of not only drugs, but other National Health Service requirements.
There is great scope in this direction in two ways. First, for increasing the employment facilities in hard-hit areas like the development districts which are scheduled under the Act. Secondly, in reducing the costs of the National Health Service by cutting out the private profit interests that are so much involved at the moment.
My fourth example concerns the oil refining plant at Grangemouth. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade knows well that many of the byproducts from that concern are sent to England and even overseas to be manufactured. Private enterprise in Scotland is clearly not interested in manufacturing them on the spot, so why should not the management corporations, under the Local Employment Act, be empowered to step in? I have given these four example—and there are many more—to show what could be done. I hope that the Government will think them to be constructive suggestions—certainly 1166 better than anything so far suggested by the Government.
It is in that spirit, of wishing to help the Government to fulfil their election pledges, that I beg to ask leave to introduce the Bill.
§ 3.46 p.m.
§ Mr. Ian MacArthur (Perth and East Perthshire)The proposed Bill of the hon. Member for Fife, West (Mr. W. Hamilton) concerns the rôle of the industrial estates management corporations which were set up under the Local Employment Act, 1960. The Measure would extend the function of these corporations beyond the role which they fill today;that is, it would extend their function from that of factory building and management agents to that of manufacturers. This goes far beyond the intention of the Act and I hope that the House will reject the Motion.
Hon. Members know of the unemployment there is in many parts of Scotland. They also know of the new industries and new employment coming to Scotland—achievements which are so often decried by hon. Gentlemen opposite. Of course, it is true that many jobs have been lost in industries that are declining or contracting, but it is equally true that many new jobs are being created in new industries with a real potential for growth. We have only to think of the new motor industry, which is not only providing new employment in itself, but from which large new satellite industries will spring if Scotland has the will to look forward and seize these opportunities.
The Local Employment Act gave positive encouragement to expanding industries on both sides of the Border to extend into the scheduled areas in Scotland. Indeed, well over half of the total aid under the Act since it came into force has been in Scotland. I believe that the true feelings of the people of Scotland are better expressed by pointing to those sections of our economy that are growing than by continually emphasising, to the exclusion of all else, those parts that are in decline.
Hon. Gentlemen opposite are constant and destructive in their criticism.
§ Mr. E. G. Willis(Edinburgh, East), The proposed Bill is constructive.
§ Mr. MacArthurThey may consider constant and destructive criticism to be 1167 the function of the Opposition. It is reasonable, therefore, that we should ask what measures they, who failed to remedy the position in their six years of office, would seek to introduce to improve on the Local Employment Act.
§ Mr. WillisWe are telling the hon. Member.
§ Mr. MacArthurThe hon. Member for Fife, West, who often speaks for the Opposition in these matters, has rediscovered nationalisation. Just as nationalisation was put forward as the cure for all ills in 1945, so State industries are put forward today. As the hon. Gentleman has shown, it would be relatively easy to extend the statutory powers of the existing management corporations so that they could set up and operate industries of their own, financed and controlled by the State.
I suggest that there are several good reasons for rejecting the hon. Gentleman's proposal. First, it is contrary to Government policy, because it would introduce nationalisation by the side door. It may be thought that the effect would be small and reasonable in view of the latest chameleon change in Socialist policy which excludes I.C.I. from the next programme of nationalisation, at any rate until the forthcoming by-elections are well out of the way. But the hon. Gentleman's proposal is, in fact, the thick end of the wedge, because it would apply to no less than 1,000 factories whose freeholds are owned by the Board of Trade and which are leased by the industrial estate management corporations to private industries.
Secondly, what would these State factories produce? The hon. Gentleman has given several examples. He referred to forestry. Perhaps he is not aware of the new pulp mill to be established near Fort William, thanks largely to the Local Employment Act. He referred to drugs;we have heard all that before. He also spoke of the National Research Development Corporation and suggested that State fac
| Division No. 203.] | AYES | [3.54 p.m. |
| Abse, Leo | Bennett, J. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) | Bowles, Frank |
| Ainsley, William | Benson, Sir George | Boyden, James |
| Albu, Austen | Blackburn, F. | Brockway, A. Fenner |
| Allen, Scholefield (Crewe) | Blyton, William | Broughton, Dr. A. D. D. |
| Awbery, Stan | Boardman, H. | Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper) |
| Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J. | Bowden, Rt. Hn. H. W.(Leics, S.W.) | Brown, Thomas Ince) |
§ tories could take on and exploit inventions developed by the Corporation. The Corporation already develops inventions to the stage at which they can be commercially exploited by the owners of development contracts with firms which the Corporation considers best suited for the work. The Corporation already has powers under existing legislation to carry out projects entailing the manufacture of goods. There is, therefore, nothing new in the hon. Gentleman's proposal. Surely it is right that the Corporation should also be free, as it is at present, to place contracts with existing and established and capable firms which it considers most suitable to undertake the work.
§ The hon. Gentleman gave four examples. I doubt whether he, or any other Socialist, would stop there. The powers which he seeks would apply to all of the 1,000 or more factories owned by the Board of Trade. What would he have them all make? Most industries are already represented in the development districts and many of them have spare capacity. There would be no purpose in setting up State industries to compete with existing industries which are unable at present to work to full capacity. Such a course would simply aggravate local problems.
§ Hon. Members opposite sometimes forget that there is no use in production in the end unless the product can be sold. No doubt the State could continue to run factories at a loss longer than anyone else, because the State has the taxpayers' resources to fall back on. I suggest that this is not the way to build a prosperous Scotland in a competitive world. The proposed Bill is an attempt to introduce Socialist nationalisation in a new guise, and I ask the House to reject the Motion.
§ Question put, pursuant to Standing Order No. 12 (Motions for leave to bring in Bills and nomination of Select Committees at commencement of Public Business):—
§ The House divided Noes 229.
1169| Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.) | Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey) | Probert, Arthur |
| Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green) | Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire) | Proctor, W. T. |
| Callahan, James | Hunter, A. E. | Randall, Harry |
| Castle, Mrs. Barbara | Irving, Sydney (Dartford) | Rankin, John |
| Collick, Percy | Jay, Rt. Hon. Douglas | Redhead, E. C. |
| Craddock, George (Bradford, S.) | Jeger, George | Reynolds, G. W. |
| Cullen, Mrs. Alice | Jenkins, Roy (Stechford) | Rhodes, H. |
| Darling, George | Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.) | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) |
| Davies, C. Elfed (Rhondda, E.) | Jones, Dan (Burnley) | Robertson, John (Paisley) |
| Davies, Harold (Leek) | Kelley, Richard | Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.) |
| Davies, S. O. (Merthyr) | Kenyon, Clifford | Rodgers, W. T. (Stockton) |
| Deer, George | Key, Rt. Hon. C. W. | Rogers, G. H. R. (Kensington, N.) |
| Delargy, Hugh | Lawson, George | Ross, William |
| Diamond, John | Lee, Frederick (Newton) | Royle, Charles (Salford, West) |
| Dodds, Norman | Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock) | Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E. |
| Ede, Rt. Hon. C. | Lewis, Arthur (West Ham, N.) | Silverman, Julius (Aston) |
| Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly) | Lipton, Marcus | Silverman, Sydney (Nelson) |
| Edwards, Robert (Bilston) | Loughlin, Charles | Skeffington, Arthur |
| Edwards, Walter (Stepney) | MacDermot, Niall | Slater, Mrs. Harriet (Stoke, N.) |
| Evans, Albert | McInnes, James | Slater, Joseph (Sedgefield) |
| Finch, Harold | McKay, John (Wallsend) | Snow, Julian |
| Fitch, Alan | McLeavy, Frank | Sorensen, R. W. |
| Fletcher, Eric | MacMillan, Malcolm (Western Isles) | Spriggs, Leslie |
| Foot, Dingle (Ipswich) | Mallalieu, J.P.W. (Huddersfield, E.) | Steele, Thomas |
| Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale) | Manuel, Archie | stonehouse, John |
| Forman, J. C. | Mason, Roy | Stones, William |
| Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton) | Mayhew, Christopher | StraChey, Rt. Hon. John |
| Galpern, Sir Myer | Mellish, R. J. | Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R. (Vauxhall) |
| Ginsburg, David | Mendelson, J. J. | Stross, Dr. Barnett (Stoke-on-Trent, C.) |
| Gooch, E. G. | Millan, Bruce | Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield) |
| Gourlay, Harry | Milne, Edward | Thomson, G. M. (Dundee, E.) |
| Grey, Charles | Monslow, Walter | Thornton, Ernest |
| Griffiths, David (Rother Valley) | Moyle, Arthur | Timmons, John |
| Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly) | Mulley, Frederick | Tomney, Frank |
| Griffiths, W. (Exchange) | Oliver, G. H. | WainWright, Edwin |
| Hale, Leslie (Oldham, W.) | Oram, A. E. | Warbey, William |
| Hall Rt. Hn. Glenvil (Colne Valley) | Owen, Will | Watkins, Tudor |
| Harper, Joseph | Pannell, Charles (Leeds, W.) | Weitzman, David |
| Hart, Mrs. Judith | Parker, John | Wells, Percy (Faversham) |
| Hay man, F. H. | Parkin, B. T. | Williams, Li (Abertillery) |
| Healey, Denis | Paton, John | Williams, W. T. (Warrington) |
| Henderson, Rt. Hn. Arthur (RwlyRegis) | Pavitt, Laurence | Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton) |
| Holman, Percy | Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd) | Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A. |
| Houghton, Douglas | Peart, Frederick | Woof, Robert |
| Howell, Charles A. (Perry Barr) | Pentland, Norman | Yates, Victor (Ladywood) |
| Howell, Denis (Small Heath) | Plummer, Sir Leslie | |
| Hoy, James H. | Price, J. T. (Westhoughton) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Mr. Willis and Mr. W. Hamilton. |
| NOES | ||
| Agnew, Sir Peter | Clark, William (Nottingham, S.) | Freeth, Denzil |
| Allan, Robert (Paddington, S.) | Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmth, W.) | Galbraith, Hon. T. G. D. |
| Allason, James | Cleaver, Leonard | Gilmour, Sir John |
| Barber, Anthony | Cooke, Robert | Glyn, Sir Richard (Dorset, N.) |
| Barlow, Sir John | Cordeaux, Lt.-Col. J. K. | Goodhew, Victor |
| Barter, John | Cordle, John | Gower, Raymond |
| Batsford, Brian | Corfield, F. V. | Grant, Rt. Hon. William |
| Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton | Costain, A. P. | Grant-Ferris, Wg. Cdr. R. |
| Bell, Ronald | Couison, Michael | Green, Alan |
| Bevins, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Courtney, Cdr. Anthony | Grimond, Rt. Hon. J. |
| Biffen, John | Craddock, Sir Beresford | Hall, John (Wycombe) |
| Biggs-Davison, John | Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. Sir Oliver | Hamilton, Michael (Wellingborough) |
| Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel | Cunningham, Knox | Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.W.) |
| Black, Sir Cyril | Dalkeith, Earl of | Harris, Reader (Heston) |
| Bourne-Arton, A. | Dance, James | Harrison, Brian (Maldon) |
| Box, Ronald | d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry | Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye) |
| Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. J. | Deedes, W. F. | Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere (Macclesf'd) |
| Braine, Bernard | Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. M. | Harvie Anderson, Miss |
| Brewis, John | Doughty, Charles | Hay, John |
| Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. SirWalter | Drayson, G. B. | Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel |
| Brooke, Rt. Hon. Henry | du Cann, Edward | Hill, Dr. Rt. Hon. Charles (Luton) |
| Brooman-White, R. | Duncan, Sir James | Hill, Mrs. Eveline (Wythenshawe) |
| Brown, Alan (Tottenham) | Eden, John | Hill, J. E. B. (S. Norfolk) |
| Browne, Percy (Torrington) | Elliott, R. w (Nwcastle-upon-Tyne, N.) | Hobson, Sir John |
| Bullard, Denys | Emmet, Hon. Mrs. Evelyn | Hocking, Philip N. |
| Bullus, Wing Commander Eric | Errington, Sir Eric | Holland, Philip |
| Burden, F. A. | Erroll, Rt. Hon. F. J. | Hollingworth, John |
| Campbell, Gordon (Moray &Nairn) | Farey-Jones, F. W. | Hope, Rt. Hon. Lord John |
| Cary, Sir Robert | Farr, John | Hopkins, Alan |
| Channon, H. P. G. | Finlay, Graeme | Hornby, R. P. |
| Chataway, Christopher | Fisher, Nigel | Howard, Hon. G. R. (St. Ives) |
| Chichester-Clark, R. | Fletcher-Cooke, Charies | Hughes Hallett, Vice-Admiral John |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Sir Winston | Fraser, Hn. Hugh (Stafford A Stone) | Hughes-Young, Michael |
| Clark, Henry (Antrim, N.) | Fraser, lan (Plymouth, Sutton) | Hulbert, Sir Norman |
| Hurd, Sir Anthony | Mills, Stratton | Smith, Dudley (Br'ntf'd &Chiswick |
| Hutchison, Michael Clark | Miscampbell, Norman | Smyth, Brig. Sir John (Norwood) |
| Iremonger, T, L. | More, Jasper (Ludlow) | Spearman, Sir Alexander |
| Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye) | Morrison, John | Stanley, Hon. Richard |
| Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich) | Mott-Radclyffe, sir Charles | Stevens, Geoffrey |
| Jennings, J. C. | Nabarro, Gerald | Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.) |
| Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle) | Nicholls, Sir Harmar | Stodart, J. A. |
| Johnson, Eric (Blackley) | Nicholson, Sir Godfrey | Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir Malcolm |
| Johnson Smith, Geoffrey | Noble, Michael | Storey, Sir Samuel |
| Joseph, Sir Keith | Nugent, Rt. Hon. Sir Richard | Studholme, Sir Henry |
| Kaberry, Sir Donald | Oakshott, Sir Hendrie | Tapsell, Peter |
| Kimball, Marcus | Orr, Capt. L. P. S. | Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne) |
| Lagden, Godfrey | Osborn, John (Hallam) | Taylor, Frank (M'ch'st'r, Moss Side |
| Lambton, Viscount | Osborne, Sir Cyril (Louth) | Taylor, W. J. (Bradford, N.) |
| Lancaster, Col. C. G. | Page, John (Harrow, West) | Teeling, Sir William |
| Langford-Holt, Sir John | Pannell, Norman (Kirkdale) | Temple, John M. |
| Leather, E. H. C. | Pearson, Frank (Clitheroe) | Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret |
| Leavey, J. A. | Peel, John | Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury) |
| Leburn, Gilmour | Pickthorn, Sir Kenneth | Thomas, Peter (Conway) |
| Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) | Pike, Miss Mervyn | Thompson, Kenneth (Walton) |
| Litchfield, Capt. John | Pilkington, Sir Richard | Tiley, Arthur (Bradford, W.) |
| Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey (Sut'nC'dfield) | Powell, Rt. Hen. J. Enoch | Touche, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon |
| Lloyd, Rt. Hon. Selwyn (Wirral) | Prior, J. M. L. | Turner, Colin |
| Loveys, Walter H. | Prior-Palmer, Brig. Sir Otho | Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H. |
| Lubbock, Eric | Profumo, Rt. Hon. John | van Straubenzee, W. R. |
| Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh | Proudfoot, Wilfred | Vickers, Miss Joan |
| McAdden, Stephen | Pym, Francis | Vosper, Rt. Hon. Dennis |
| McLaren, Martin | Quennell, Miss J. M. | Wade, Donald |
| McLaughlin, Mrs. Patricia | Redmayne, Rt. Hon. Martin | Wakefield, Sir Wavell |
| Maclay, Rt. Hon. John | Rees, Hugh | Walker, Peter |
| Maclean, Sir Fitzroy (Bute&N.Ayrs.) | Renton, David | Ward, Dame lrene |
| Macleod, Rt. Hn. lain (Enfield, W.) | Ridley, Hon. Nicholas | Wells, John (Maidstone) |
| Macmillan, Maurice (Halifax) | Ridsdale, Julian | Whitelaw, William |
| Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries) | Robertson, Sir D. (C'thn's &S'th'ld) | Williams, Dudley (Exeter) |
| Maddan, Martin | Robinson, Rt. Hn. Sir R. (B'pool, S.) | Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater) |
| Maitland, Sir John | Robson Brown, Sir William | Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro) |
| Manningham-Buller, Rt. Hn. Sir R, | Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks) | Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick |
| Markham, Major Sir Frank | Roots, William | Worsley, Marcus |
| Marshall, Douglas | Russell, Ronald | Yates, William (The Wrekin) |
| Marten, Neil | Scott-Hopkins, James | |
| Mathew, Robert (Honiton) | Seymour, Leslie | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Matthews, Gordon (Meriden) | Sharples, Richard | Mr. N. McLean and |
| Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. | Shaw, M. | Mr. MacArthur. |
| Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C. | Skeet, T. H. H. |