EUROPEAN ECONOMIC COMMUNITY

HC Deb 28 May 1962 vol 660 cc967-74

30. Mr. Rankin

asked the Lord Privy Seal what discussions there have been during the recent negotiations on Britain's entry into the Common Market about a common policy in regard to trade with the Eastern bloc; and what ratio is to be maintained between such trade and trade with other countries outside the European Economic Community.

Mr. Godber

The Community policy on trade with the Eastern bloc will be determined as part of its broader commercial policy. This is still in a very early stage of development and officials have had only exploratory discussions in Brussels.

Mr. Rankin

Is the Minister of State aware that certain important organs of opinion in this country have made it clear that the Common Market countries propose to engage in an aggressive trade war with the Eastern bloc and that Sweden, Switzerland and Austria have been informed that if they go into the Common Market they will be absolved from participating in that war? If that is so, will the hon. Gentleman assure us that Britain is not entering the Common Market for that purpose and will also seek absolution?

Mr. Godber

As far as I am aware, there is no foundation for what the hon. Gentleman says. Certainly I have never heard such a proposal. It is not a proposal of Her Majesty's Government, nor, I believe, of the Six.

Mr. Rankin

Will the hon. Gentleman assure us that when the proposal comes to his notice we shall not enter the Common Market for the purpose which I have stated?

Mr. Godber

I think that the purposes for which we would enter the Common Market have been quite clearly stated. This is certainly not one of them.

31. Mr. Shinwell

asked the Lord Privy Seal what conversations Her Majesty's Government have had with trade union leaders on the economic effect of British association with the European Economic Community.

Mr. Godber

Her Majesty's Government are in touch informally with representatives of all sides of the country's economic life concerning the negotiations between the United Kingdom and the European Economic Community.

Mr. Shinwell

Can the hon. Gentleman be more specific? Have the Government engaged in conversations with trade union leaders on this matter? If so, may we be furnished with some of the details of those conversations? Could they be incorporated in the OFFICIAL REPORT? IS it the case the Ministers have failed to warn trade union leaders of the adverse effects of the provisions of the Rome Treaty on the workers of this country, particularly those in the mining community?

Mr. Godber

My right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal has had a number of informal talks with trade union leaders as well as with other sections of the community. I should have thought that that would be welcomed by the House. It is important that these consultations should take place, and the more informal they are the better. It is not for me to expand on that, particularly because there is to be a debate shortly on these matters.

Mr. Shinwell

I am not objecting to the Government engaging, in conversations with people or bodies outside; far from it. That is very advisable. What I should like to know is what the Ministers say to those people. Could we be furnished with some details of what they say? Do they furnish information to people outside which is withheld from hon. Members?

Mr. Godber

No, they do not. Obviously, if there are informal conversations, it is better that they should continue in that form. As I have said, these matters are to be debated shortly in the House, and I do not think it necessary for me to go any further today.

Mr. Edelman

Is the Minister of State aware that one factor which prevents many trade unionists from making up their minds about the Common Market is the absence of official comparative figures showing relative wage rates as between this country and the Common Market countries? Will the hon. Gentleman and the Government seriously consider publishing official figures showing the relative hourly wage rates, including the social benefits which accrue in continental countries and in our own country?

Mr. Godber

I am all for trade unionists and others getting the fullest possible information, but, as the hon. Gentleman indicated, it is necessary to consider other comparable matters besides wage rates. I should like to think about what he has said.

Mr. A. Royle

Is my hon. Friend aware that it is possible for hon. Members to obtain from the Vote Office a booklet called Britain and the European Community, issued by Her Majesty's Government, which covers much of the background details?

Mr. Godber

I hope that hon. Members will obtain a copy and will read it.

39. Sir D. Walker-Smith

asked the Lord Privy Seal if he can yet say which statutes are being scrutinised for possible repeal or amendment in the event of the entry of the United Kingdom into the Common Market.

Mr. Godber

The examination of the legal implications of adherence to the Treaty of Rome, which Her Majesty's Government are at present undertaking, naturally involves the scrutiny of any fields of our existing legislation which could possibly be affected. It would be premature to attempt any indication of the statutes which might eventually be found to require repeal or amendment.

Sir D. Walker-Smith

Does my hon. Friend really think that that is a satisfactory position at this stage of the negotiations? Is he aware that I have a personally compiled catalogue of legisla- tion, which is lengthy but probably not comprehensive? In view of the great interest now being taken in this matter, is it not time that we had from the Government an official catalogue of the legisation with which Parliament would be called upon to deal in accordance with the Treaty of Rome if, in the event, we adhere to the Community?

Mr. Godber

Until one knows the terms on which we would secure entry, it is impossible to make any effective computation. I am quite aware that my right hon. and learned Friend has studied the matter. I also studied his letter upon it in The Times last week. I also saw an interesting letter on the same subject in The Times today from the hon. and learned Member for Ipswich (Mr. D. Foot).

Mr. Lipton

Cannot this be left in the safe hands of the Attorney-General, who, no doubt, in due course will give details to the House in his usual incomprehensible fashion?

Mr. Godber

I am gratified to have that tribute to my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General, which I will certainly pass on to him. He will evaluate it from the source from which it came.

40. Sir D. Walker-Smith

asked the Lord Privy Seal if he will cause to be made available official English translations of the texts of regulations issued under the Treaty of Rome.

Mr. Godber

Unofficial translations of the agricultural regulations of the Community have been placed in the Vote Office. Translations of the eighteen other regulations published by the Community will be similarly made available as soon as they are ready.

Sir D. Walker-Smith

When is that likely to be? Does my hon. Friend recognise, in particular, the importance, for example, of the regulations governing the rules of competition under Article 14, by which the Commission would be able to interrogate British firms and have access to their premises and sites, and under Article 15 to impose fines upon them? Are not these matters which the Government should ensure are widely disseminated for the information of the British public in the context of these negotiations?

Mr. Godber

I am satisfied that we should make the maximum amount of information available, and it will be made available just as soon as possible. Such delay as has occurred has been due solely to mechanical factors; translations have to be checked and edited and then reproduced. They are involved, and it is important to get them correct for presentation to hon. Members. When they are available, however, they should certainly be given wide publicity. All these matters will be debated fully in the House within a short time.

Mr. Turton

Can my hon. Friend explain how we are to get on when we actually enter the Common Market if there is long delay in the translation of every document?

Mr. Godber

That is a hypothetical question, because we have not yet decided to enter the Common Market.

Mr. Warbey

When will the Government make available in cheap popular form, similar to the document which is now available in the Vote Office, an authentic, official translation of the text of the Treaty of Rome, so that people can know what it is to which the Government have already committed them?

Mr. Godber

We are not fully committed already. Secondly, translations have been made available, certainly to Members of Parliament, and I would have thought that they would have been available elsewhere.

Mr. Warbey

Is the hon. Gentleman now contradicting the earlier statements of the Lord Privy Seal that the Government fully accept the whole of the text of the Treaty of Rome without amendment?

Mr. Godber

I am certainly not contradicting what my right hon. Friend said. He said that we accepted them for the purpose of negotiation, which is a quite different matter.

42. Mr. Zilliacus

asked the Lord Privy Seal whether, in the light of the action of the Coal and Steel High Authority in invalidating the Belgian Coal Directory Act, he will give an assurance that he will emphasise in the current negotiations that Her Majesty's Government must retain the freedom to use public economic ownership and planning in the interests of social progress.

Mr. Godber

The question of the powers of the Belgian Coal Directory under the Act which established it is still under discussion between the High Authority of the European Coal and Steel Community and the Belgian Government, and it is therefore not correct to say that it has been invalidated. I see no reason to fear that membership of the European Communities would impede social progress in this country.

Mr. Zilliacus

Is not the Minister of State aware that the Coal and Steel High Authority called upon the Belgian Government to repeal an essential provision in their law, on the double ground that sovereignty in this matter had now been handed to the European Economic Community and that those provisions interfered with free competition? Does the Minister of State deny that any measures of public ownership and planning in the interests of social progress which interfere with free competition would be disallowed under the Rome Treaty on this ruling?

Mr. Godber

No. With regard to the European Coal and Steel Community, Article 83 of that Treaty states that membership of the Community does not in any way prejudice the system of ownership of enterprises, subject to the provisions of the Treaty. So far as the Treaty of Rome is concerned, there is nothing in it which would prevent public ownership or public planning by a member Government. That is not to say I am in favour of such a thing.

Mr. H. Wilson

The hon. Gentleman still has not answered the question as to whether the interpretation of the Treaty of Rome by the authorities concerned would make it impossible for public ownership to run in this country for coal and other industries. Will the hon. Gentleman not in any case say whether it is or is not a fact that the decision of the High Authority in this respect will make it quite impossible even for the present Government to maintain the Iron and Steel Board—such as it is: we do not think much of that either. But would the hon. Gentleman not confirm that the Iron and Steel Board could not continue even, because of these rulings?

Mr. Godber

No. I was dealing particularly with the European Coal and Steel Community and I pointed out that Article 83 does not invalidate this. As far as the Treaty of Rome is concerned, as I said, there is nothing in it which would prevent public ownership or planing to continue. That is the position under the Treaty as it now stands.

Mr. Wilson

The Question referred to the Coal and Steel High Authority and a decision thereof. What we want to know is whether, as a result of that decision, the Government still feel that we shall be free to use public ownership in coal, and for that matter in steel, as an instrument of economic planning—

Mr. F. M. Bennett

I.C.I.?

Mr. Wilson

—if the people so desire. Chemicals are not covered by the Coal and Steel Community, as hon. Members opposite may possibly understand. Secondly, would the hon. Gentleman tell us plainly whether in the view of the Government, as in the view of the steel industry, the Iron and Steel Board would have to go?

Mr. Godber

No. I was speaking in relation to the Coal and Steel Community. I referred to the Treaty of Rome because the right hon. Gentleman referred to it. I pointed out that Article 83 does not prejudice ownership at all. That is so far as the Coal and Steel Community is concerned. Therefore, it is not inherent in this that the present Coal and Steel Board could not continue.

Sir M. Lindsay

Will my hon. Friend the Minister of State not let himself be discouraged by continuous co-ordinated anti-Common Market questions, bearing in mind that it is impossible to find a banker or an industrialist of any standing who does not think that it is essential for us to go into the Common Market if we can?

Mr. Godber

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his support on these matters. We have got to evaluate this in the light of the discussions and negotiations now going on. The Government cannot arrive at a clear decision till we know the terms on which we should enter.

Mr. E. L. Mallalieu

However excellent the action of the Coal and Steel Community may have been in closing uneconomic pits in Belgium, however civilised this action may have been in regard to training miners at £20 a week to do something else, will the hon. Gentleman agree that there is nothing whatever in the agreement in that Community—

Mr. Shinwell

Tell this to the Durham miners.

Mr. Mallalieu

—which would prevent national economic ownership?

Mr. Godber

So far as I am aware, there is nothing to prevent it, but that does not mean I support it.