§ 8. Mr. Lubbockasked the Minister of Health, what are the ratios between the current maximum salaries of a ward sister, a staff nurse and a State enrolled nurse as compared with those on 1st February, 1949; and what are the equivalent figures allowing for the change in the value of the £.
§ Miss PittAs the answer contains a number of figures, I will, with permission, circulate them in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
§ Mr. LubbockIs the hon. Lady aware that during this period the wages of women over 18 years of age have doubled, and that I am sure that the figures which will be given in the OFFICIAL REPORT will show that nurses have been left behind in the increase in the standard of living achieved by their contemporaries? Is the hon. Lady further aware that this indicates that they have been grossly unfairly treated in the rejection of their wage claim?
§ Miss PittThe hon. Gentleman will find when he is able to study the figures in the OFFICIAL REPORT that they show that increases in pay to nurses have more than kept pace with changes in the value of the £. However, I am sure that he will wish to amplify his points in the debate later today if he catches your eye, Mr. Speaker.
§ Following are the ratios:
| General Hospitals | Psychiatric Hospitals | |||
| (a) | (b) | (a) | (b) | |
| Ward Sister. | 1.68 | 1.09 | 1.72 | 1.12 |
| Staff nurse | 1.58 | 1.03 | 1.63 | 1.06 |
| State enrolled nurse. | 1.50 | 0.98 | not available | not available |
| (a) Current. | ||||
| (b) Allowing for changes in value of £. |
§ 11. Mr. D. Footasked the Minister of Health how many representations he has received since 13th March, 1962, either directly or through Members of Parliament, regarding the remuneration and working conditions of nurses and midwives; and whether Her Majesty's Government will advise the setting up of a Royal Commission to consider these matters with instructions to report with all possible dispatch.
§ Mr. PowellBetween five and six hundred to the end of April. The answer to the second part of the Question is "No, Sir."
§ Mr. FootDoes the right hon. Gentleman appreciate the extent of public concern in this matter? Is there any reason why the Government should not, in the case of nurses, follow the precedent set in the case of the police?
§ Mr. PowellI think that this and other matters will be dealt with in the debate on this subject which is to take place later today.
§ 19. Mr. Delargyasked the Minister of Health why the hospital management committee at South Ockenden refused to allow a deputation of nurses to meat the hon. Member for Thurrock at the hospital premises.
§ Mr. PowellBecause they considered a meeting of the kind proposed would be more suitably held elsewhere.
§ Mr. DelargyThis is a rather surprising answer. Is it the right hon. Gentleman's policy to prevent Members of Parliament from meeting their constituents in their constituencies in hospital without his permission? Where better 918 to meet the nurses than in the place where they work, in the spacious accommodation which exists? In particular, will he say whether he approves of this decision taken by the hospital management committee? There are three supplementary questions, and I should like to have three answers.
§ Mr. PowellI think that the decision is entirely within the powers and duties of the hospital management committee. I am sure that all hospital management committees—it would certainly be my wish—will welcome Members of Parliament on to their premises and welcome opportunities for Members of Parliament to meet the nurses and other staff as they go about their work. But, as the hon. Member knows, the meeting envisaged was for a specific purpose connected with wage negotiations and the hospital management committee thought it better that that meeting should take place elsewhere.
§ Mr. SorensenDoes not the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that nurses are in a difficult position since many of them live in and it is, therefore, difficult for them to meet their Members of Parliament elsewhere. Will he not give some sort of advice to all regional hospital boards instructing them not to perpetuate this rather stupid obstruction of Members of Parliament?
§ Mr. PowellI do not think that any particular advice on this is needed, and I think that the hospital management committees behave very sensibly in this matter.
§ Mr. LiptonIs it true that some hospital matrons have told the nurses under their control not to write to their local Members of Parliament?
§ Mr. PowellThat is another question and it cannot be within my knowledge.
§ Mr. DelargyWhy should a hospital management committee think it inadvisable for me to meat the nurses on the premises to talk about their pay conditions, since pay has nothing whatever to do with hospital management committees?
§ Mr. PowellThat seems to me to be a very good reason.
§ 20. Mr. Delargyasked the Minister of Health whether Her Majesty's Government will advise the setting up of a Royal Commission to consider the recruitment, remuneration and working conditions of nurses and midwives.
§ Mr. PowellNo, Sir.
§ Mr. DelargyHas the Minister not received any representations from the nurses themselves? Does he not know that the Nursing Association is strongly in favour of such a Commission being appointed?
§ Mr. PowellThere is a debate on this whole question later today.
§ Mr. DelargyI am asking if the right hon. Gentleman is aware of the Nursing Association's desire for this Commission?
§ 25. Mr. W. Hamiltonasked the Minister of Health what would be the estimated sum involved in granting an all-round 20 per cent. increase to all trained nurses within the National Health Service.
§ Mr. PowellNineteen million pounds a year in Great Britain, including local health authority services.
§ Mr. HamiltonSince that represents less than one quarter of the concession to be given to Surtax papers this year, will the right hon. Gentleman do something to take some of the heat and violence out of the debate which we will be having later by announcing now that he proposes to grant such an increase?
§ Mr. PowellI would refer the hon. Gentleman to the debate which is to follow.
§ 32. Mr. Sorensenasked the Minister of Health to what extent matters of discipline and regulations affecting the nursing and other staffs of hospitals, in particular the wearing of uniform outside hospital precincts, are left to matrons or to the hospital boards or committees; and whether any general advice on such matters has been given to the regional hospital boards.
§ Miss PittThese are matters for the hospital authorities. My right hon. Friend has issued no general advice.
§ Mr. SorensenDoes the hon. Lady appreciate that in most hospitals nurses are allowed to go out into the main thoroughfares in their uniforms on certain occasions and to attend various public events on other occasions when they are not permitted to wear their uniforms? In these circumstances, would not some kind of general advice bring about a code of disciplinary treatment so that nurses may know where they stand and prevent the absurd incident which happened quite recently?
§ Miss PittI do not think that advice is needed on this relatively unimportant point. However, I must correct the hon. Gentleman on the main point which he raised. The common practice is for nurses when off duty not to wear their ward uniforms, or at least their aprons and caps, because of the risk of carrying infection back to the hospitals.
§ Mrs. BraddockIs not the hon. Lady aware that the mix-up in this matter has caused great concern? Some hospital matrons have agreed that, if they desire, nurses should go to meetings in their uniforms. The point about infection being carried back to the hospital is completely fallacious. Nurses go all over the place in their uniforms for certain purposes. When a request is made to management committees, no direction is given. Management committees make their own decisions by taking a vote in some instances. Will the hon. Lady ask the Minister whether some general direction can be given so that nurses and matrons know where they stand?
§ Miss PittI see no need to lay down general standards of discipline. Responsibility in this matter must rest with the hospital management committee concerned.
§ Mr. MarshDoes not the hon. Lady agree that it is not so much the wearing of uniform in such a case that is of concern as the fact that a large number of people believe that a great deal of the present shortage of nurses is due to the nonsensical Victorian discipline which is being applied to them?
§ Miss PittThere have been tremendous changes in standards of discipline in the hospital world since I first became associated with it. By and large, 921 the discipline which is applied today is reasonable.
§ Mr. SorensenOn a point of order. Owing to the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter at the earliest opportunity.