HC Deb 21 March 1962 vol 656 cc368-70
11. Mr. Shinwell

asked the Secretary of State for War what plans he has for curtailment of headquarters and staff when National Service is terminated and the target of regular troops is reached.

Mr. Profumo

I am always looking for ways and means of reducing headquarters and staffs. I have not waited for the end of National Service. In a year's time, the strength of the War Office (excluding departments subsequently transferred from the Ministry of Supply) will have been reduced by a quarter since 1956, when plans for the all-regular Army were formed. My right hon. Friend explained in the Defence White Paper that a unified Command will be set up in the Far East, and that in Cyprus the Army Headquarters will be reduced in size.

Mr. Shinwell

Is it not time for another look to follow that of 1956? As the right hon. Gentleman will have under his administration no more than, say, 180,000 troops, is it not desirable to adjust the proportion as between those at the top and those not near the top?

Mr. Profumo

It certainly is desirable, and, as I have said, we are trying to reduce the number as quickly as we possibly can, but one cannot evaluate the size of the Army against the number of administrative personnel. In fact, in any country the administrative requirements of an Army in peacetime, in a democracy, require certain activities which are not wholly related to the numbers in the Army. But we are pressing ahead with this.

Mr. Shinwell

I appreciate the difficulties which present themselves to the right hon. Gentleman, but obviously if the number of troops is reduced in any particular base or garrison, or even in B.A.O.R., we cannot retain the same number of generals and major generals and all the rest of them. We shall be very disappointed if the right hon. Gentleman does not adjust the proporton.

Mr. Profumo

I was addressing myself not wholly to generals but to administrative staff as such. I know only too well of the right hon. Gentleman's pertinacity in trying to get rid of the tail. We are doing all we can, and it seems to me that where the heads fall the branches wither.

Incidentally, if through a slip of the tongue I said "400 a week" earlier, I meant that we are building 400 a month. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Nevertheless, this is very big indeed.

Mr. Paget

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that at this particular moment we are more interested in heads than tails? At present, as we have less than half the Army to command, how many fewer generals have we got to command it?

Mr. Profumo

I have tried to answer the question on the Order Paper. If the hon. and learned Member for Northampton will put down another question I will certainly try to give him the information. I told the right hon. Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) that we are trying our best to cut down the administrative element of the Army, and I think from what I have said that I have proved that we are trying to do this.